PDF Policy

[calithena]

Hi all -

Got a sec here. One of the things we need to discuss is PDFs.

I would rather that all copies of Fight On! released were print copies. There are all sorts of reasons for this - lo-fi period spirit, our different relation to printed media, having it be something for use at a table, having a physical artifact that can last out there, and so on.

However, realistically there are a lot of people who won't ever get the mag if it's not PDF, and international postage is a lot of money over lulu's premiums, etc. So I'm willing to bend a little so that people can eventually get PDF copies of it. Plus no doubt there are some folks who do everything online now anyway.

So we do need to make PDFs available in some way or form.

Contributors

We'd like to get all contributors a free print copy. We can't, so the least we can do is get you all a free PDF. However, it's kind of a hassle to track everyone down and some contributors will probably prefer to buy their own print copy anyway, so the rule is: send iggy an email after the issue is released ([e-mail]) and he'll send you the PDF. Please don't mail copies of it around, post it on filesharing sites, etc.

In addition, for the first issue only I'd like to offer the free PDF to Finarvyn, for getting these great boards started, to Rengate, who was my original partner on Revenant Runes before the project changed shape, and to Oltekos, who was supposed to have an article in issue 1 but I just misplaced the text. Same deal for you guys though, got to drop Ig an email to get it.

When can I get it if I'm not a contributor?

We will alter our lulu settings to make pdf's available for sale at some point between one month after that issue is released in print and two weeks after the next issue is released in print. Probably it will be closer to the later end of that spectrum.

If for some reason you can't or don't want to use lulu I suppose you could also contact Ig for a direct sale of the PDF. He won't sell any before they're available on lulu though.

How much will it cost?

I'm unsure about this. I want to ask enough to make people really think about getting print instead but little enough that the price doesn't fall into 'being a jerk' behavior. I'm thinking probably $3 is right for the first issue (a dime per page). This is not about making money, it's about trying to get people to purchase print copies instead.



Feedback on all the above is welcome.

[Zulgyan]

I think that maybe you should only send PDFs to people you trust and have legitimate interest in the zine and it's prosperity.

Or open PDF option after 2 issues have passed. So that people are not so exited about getting it, but have waited to get it in PDF.

We don't want piracy over Fight On! Only give PDFs to those you know that won't share it.

Even thought I've been a contributor, I'm willing to pay a price and support the zine.

[makofan]

I contributed, but I also bought a hard copy. I mean, it was $12 after shipping. People pay that much each week for their hobbies

[Zulgyan]

Hey, I've just checked that shipment to Argentina was $2.15

Is that possible?!?

I was standard shipment. That takes like a month right?

[Zulgyan]

Cool, it seems that we latinos are getting 70% for shipments! Thanks Lulu!

[John Stark]

I understand the desire to "keep it old school" by publishing it as a print product only for awhile, but I think ulitmately that's a bad move. Like it or not, digital format is the wave, and it is by far the best way to get something into the hands of as many people as possible to stir up interest. Digital format is the most accessible format hands down. Further, digital format will immortalize a product. As long as there are computers and an internet, there will be PDFs of gaming products floating around all over the place.

In terms of piracy, I think the reality of the situation needs to be confronted head on. Nearly every gaming product (except for some rare stuff, like Palace of the Vampire Queen, which I've never seen in PDF) that has ever been produced or will ever be produced is going to end up on the file sharing sites. Usually these items are scanned and posted within a few days of release, and certainly within a few weeks. I'm not saying that this is a good thing, I'm simply saying that it is a reality of our times. I guarantee that Fight On! issue 1 will be posted as a pdf before you offer yours for sale according to your current plan.

So, I do hope the current pdf policy gets revised. Delaying release in pdf format does nothing to protect the product from piracy, and merely inconveniences some of your target (willing to pay) audience. I'd even say that 5 dollars for a pdf of this type isn't unreasonable, especially given the 32 pages of content. There's a lot of complete, utter crap that sells on RPGNow for more than that in pdf format, heh.

[calithena]

Thanks for the feedback, John. I know we can't do much about piracy, though with a small-scale project like this the delay may be a little longer. I don't feel comfortable charging that much $ for it.

I know there are a lot of people who want it on PDF. I've left myself leeway to release it as early as a month after the print release. I really don't want to go any sooner than that, but if I keep hearing feedback like yours, I may pull it back to that point.

Still looking forward to your map submissions when you have time!

[Melan]

I am on the opinion that people who buy a fanzine can show it the courtesy of buying it on paper. The best things in life are free, but "for money, and on paper" gets more respect.

[greyharp]

Apr 22, 2008 1:00:51 GMT -6 Melan said:

I am on the opinion that people who buy a fanzine can show it the courtesy of buying it on paper. The best things in life are free, but "for money, and on paper" gets more respect.

I can't say I agree with respect to "buying it on paper", but then postal costs can often be more than the item itself for people like myself living in Australia. I go to the effort of making my pdf purchases durable and long lasting, as can be seen in this thread of mine at DF.

Having said all that, Zulgyan's post above got me curious and I added Fight On! to my Lulu cart and got a grand total of $4.30 postage to Australia. How can I argue with that? So it looks like I will purchase a print copy after all. ;D

[coffee]

PDF or no, I'm proud to have my print copy. It's going in the stack with my Best of the Dragon v. I, Ready Ref Sheets, and Dungeoneer Compendium.

It's just how I was raised; I understand the kids these days like their PDFs and that's okay. But I like paper. (Of course, I probably shouldn't be proud of killing trees on Earth Day, but I am a product of my times...)

[settembrini]

I´m strongly against pdf, for this endeavour. Speaking as a "customer" here.

If this project had started as a pdf, NOBODY would have noticed it.

[ffilz]

I'll speak from the other side. As someone who no longer has the luxury of filling rooms with bookshelves now that I'm married, and have a drastically reduced budget, PDF form makes it far more likely I will invest in any particular product. I will reserve my shelf space for truly classic products.

I have no idea if I will actually purchase Fight On! in PDF form, but I can almost assure you I will never purchase it in print form (unless a used copy shows up for a couple bucks in a local store).

Frank

[greyharp]

Copy ordered at a total cost of $10.68 USD to Australia. It will be interesting to see how long it takes to arrive. This is my first non-PDF purchase from Lulu.

[Finarvyn]

Apr 20, 2008 18:42:00 GMT -6 calithena said:

In addition, for the first issue only I'd like to offer the free PDF to Finarvyn, for getting these great boards started....

I already bought a print copy, but I won't turn down a free PDF as well.

A couple thoughts occur to me at the moment:
1 - Some games offer a "print and PDF" deal where you pay for both, get the PDF right away and the print copy as soon as it can be mailed. I bought both Don't Rest Your Head and Spirit of the Century from Evil Hat games this way and was happy to have both formats.
2 - Because of what I anticipate being somewhat low print runs, I don't see anything wrong with holding off on PDF sales for a while after the print version becomes availible. (Or, with my idea #1 above, the PDF can arrive a couple weeks after each initial release. It makes the print version more exciting, since it's the first one you can acquire!)
3- Have you considered a subscription of some sort? It would be kind of nice to pay for several issues up front so that I don't have to worry about missing one. The subscription could be print only, PDF only, or both print/PDF.
4 - In general I'm not sure that piracy will be a huge issue here. I'm thinking that Fight On! will cater to the type of person who is more willing to cough up a few bucks to support the hobby, but that might just be me being naive.

[Melan]

Apr 22, 2008 10:09:24 GMT -6 settembrini said:

If this project had started as a pdf, NOBODY would have noticed it.

People eventually would have, the people who matter did discover my stuff after all. But it's a long way through snow, and uphill both ways.

Fun fact of the day: it took until right now for Dragonsfoot's PDF modules to get their first review! And we are talking about 20+ modules and counting.

[greyharp]

I feel there is a difference between the way people will use free stuff and the materials they've paid for. I'll download free pdf's by the hundred, barely glance at them and rub my collector's hands together in glee as I put them in the appropriate folder on my hard drive. I hate reading long documents on a screen and always think to myself "I'll read that another day", which of course, like tomorrow, never comes.

But when I purchase a pdf file, I'll immediately print it out with a cardstock cover, give it a good invisible binding and cover it in contact - then I read the bugger straight away. I bought it because I thought it was worth it and I value it because I've paid good money for it, more so if it turns out it was worth paying for. (Interestingly, I recently read a couple of the Dragonsfoot modules a few weeks back and found them far superior to some 1e modules I'd purchased in pdf format from a well-known company.)

I don't think it's the matter of having it in print that makes a difference, I think it's the fact that people have to pay money to own it that is the crux of the matter, whether in print form or pdf.

[calithena]

Good point, Greyharp. That's a big part of why I feel we have to charge at least a little for the eventual released PDF; practically every study I've ever ready show that people enjoy things they pay a little for more than they enjoy things they get free, and also pay more attention to them. Money focuses attention, I guess.

[edsan]

Apr 23, 2008 5:26:26 GMT -6 calithena said:

Money focuses attention, I guess.

This is something every D&D character knows.

[jdrakeh]

Fanzines like Iridia (which started as PDF-only endeavors) generated enough interest when marketed properly to warrant print editions after the fact. The key to notoriety isn't so much choosing a medium as it is implementing good, directed, promotion (something that most free PDF material lacks, thus the uphill slog to find a subscriber base).

[Edit: D'oh! OD&Dities is also a superb example of a very popular and well-known PDF-only zine. . . for OD&D.]

[Zulgyan]

Note that OD&Dities follows a different definition of OD&D than the one used in this boards.

Here OD&D is everything before Holmes. Basically the 3 LBB, plus the supplements (the latter totally optional)

OD&Dities' OD&D definition refers to what we call B/X (Moldvay) or BECMI (Mentzer) or RC.

[busman]

didn't OD&Dities stop publishing quite a while back now?

[James Maliszewski]

Apr 27, 2008 11:32:22 GMT -6 busman said:

didn't OD&Dities stop publishing quite a while back now?

I believe so and, as Zulygan correctly notes, it wasn't in fact an OD&D 'zine anyway, since it focused primarily on post-3LBB versions of the game. A lot of that material is perfectly usable with OD&D, of course, but it's not specifically geared toward the original edition of the rules.

[calithena]

ODDities was a great fanzine and Richard Tongue is a really nice guy. They haven't been in print for a while though.

I'm pretty sure I could run this mag in a way that would triple+ our subscribers - PDF being one of the means available for that. I think one reason jrients pushed on me to start this up is that I'm pretty well connected across the gaming world and I know how to promote things. (Wait 'til you see a couple of the folks submitting in issue 2!)

But our goal isn't to sell copies (I don't think), it's to create and help sustain a community of people who want to be running and playing these games. If we produce good content and get it to the people who want it, that in the end is what it's all about. I mean, I don't want to sell a dozen or two extra copies to (for example, this isn't a slag) rpg.net folks who are sort of vaguely interested and then generate lots of resentful threads and reviews from people who kinda-sorta-like some of what we do but wish we'd 'update' or whatever. I think if we stay true to our core vision we'll have more fun.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think I could increase notoriety in lots of ways but I don't think the time's right now. I think for now what we want to do is concentrate on having fun and staying with our core visions.

[jdrakeh]

Apr 27, 2008 11:32:22 GMT -6 busman said:

didn't OD&Dities stop publishing quite a while back now?

Yes, but it persisted for far longer than many fanzines (including several commercial endeavors) have.

[jdrakeh]

While it's true that reaching out to a larger audience will exponentially increase the odds of running into folks who are hostile to OD&D*, it's equally true that not reaching out to a larger audience will exponentially reduce opportunity for growth. Active outreach is required for continuous growth.

Catering to an existing fanbase and creating a new one (or growing an existing one) are two different things entirely. If the goal is growth, the wider distribution model must support that goal, in order to achieve it. If growth is not a goal, then the distribution model need to support it.

I see some confusion with regard to goals and Fight On. Some people seem to want it tailored to an existing fanbase, with an eye toward basic service and little emphasis on growth. Others seem to want it tailored to a larger audience, with an eye toward drawing new people toward OD&D.

Both of these things are admirable goals, though there is very little room for overlap between the two. It may be prudent to craft a mission statement for Fight On that codifies goals and such before too many more issues are actively pursued, as it may help to avoid potentially heated debates in the future.

*I don't think that negative reviews will be an issue, lest the 'zine contains intentionally dismissive or offensive content. OD&Dities never received an overwhelmingly negative review, to the best of my knowledge, for example.

[Zulgyan]

I think that the only goal of FO! is fun and friendship. And that's just great! ;D

[jdrakeh]

Apr 27, 2008 19:17:01 GMT -6 Zulgyan said:

I think that the only goal of FO! is fun and friendship. And that's just great! ;D

That sounds like a winning combination to me, though I see several posts that suggest other people wanting different things from the 'zine (not so much in this thread, but in other threads).

[Melan]

Apr 27, 2008 18:54:12 GMT -6 @jdrakeh said:

*I don't think that negative reviews will be an issue, lest the 'zine contains intentionally dismissive or offensive content. OD&Dities never received an overwhelmingly negative review, to the best of my knowledge, for example.

Did it ever get formally reviewed, though? I am drawing a blank. Footprints, DF's publications -- they never seemed to generate even discussion, not to mention reviews...

[makofan]

My kids are impressed by the fact that I am in print. Anything that impresses my kids is good!

[jdrakeh]

Apr 27, 2008 23:17:24 GMT -6 Melan said:

Did it ever get formally reviewed, though? I am drawing a blank. Footprints, DF's publications -- they never seemed to generate even discussion, not to mention reviews...

Yes, OD&Dities got reviewed on RPGNet, though the reviews may have been black holed in the various server swaps since that time. Incidentally, those reviews were how I first discovered OD&Dities way back when (prior to its archiving at DF).

As for Footprints. . . I think that there is a different reason that DF material rarely (if ever) gets reviewed outside of DF. Let's face it -- organizing deliberate trolling expeditions to other web communities or frequently talking trash about the two largest RPG review sites on the web doesn't win much favor with those sites and communities.

While I acknowldege that DF members haven't been doing any of this lately, there was a time when it seemed to be the leisure activity du jour for many (but not all) DF posters and, frankly, it pissed off a lot of other people in a lot of other places. Several DF posters were burning bridges like it was going out of style and it seems that the consequences have finally been reaped.

There are, simply, few independent reviewers or review sites willing to give DF material a second glance, despite there being no lack of longtime, well-established, reviewers who review free products.

Expecting those other places and people to do DF any favors now is, frankly, pretty unrealistic. It took years for DF to completely destroy any good will that it had built up with other online communities and it will take years of good behavior to rebuild it, as well. For example, the ill will fostered by nearly six full years of referring to ENWorld posters as "3etards" is not going to disappear overnight