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Post by Jonathan Miller on Nov 18, 2012 9:03:37 GMT -6
What are typical weapons and armor for light foot, heavy foot, armored foot, and other troop types? I've been looking over Chainmail 3rd edition and OD&D, but can't find a clear answer.
Presumably the movement rates for each troop type give some clue as to the type of armor worn. But it's unclear which type of armor corresponds to which movement rate. Perhaps leather armor is 12", chain is 9", and plate is 6"?
Also, light foot movement is listed as 12" in OD&D (Men & Magic, p. 15) but as 9" in Chainmail (p. 10, albeit with a 12" charge movement rate).
Presumably light foot also wield weapons which are generally less effective in melee than those wielded by heavy foot or armored foot, though I'm not sure what that means in practice. Spears for light foot, and halberds/pikes/pole arms for heavy foot and armored foot?
Your thoughts are appreciated!
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Post by Mushgnome on Nov 18, 2012 9:35:57 GMT -6
As I understand the rules: The primary factor is the experience and training of the soldiers, with armor type being the "tie breaker" if they are in between categories (and necessary to fight as Armored obviously). Untrained peasants with the finest weapons & armor money can buy? Light Foot. Conan in a loincloth? Heavy Foot. Weapon type doesn't enter into the equation unless it's a pike or missile weapon or tiebreaker situation.
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Post by cooper on Nov 18, 2012 13:50:31 GMT -6
Under "men" in 0d&d, the composition of bandit forces lists light foot and light horse as "leather or leather and shield", heavy foot is chain or chain and shield and medium horse is chain and shield.
Mushgnome's point is spot on though, is that there are variables based on the skill of the forces, but weapons can play a factor, leather armored warriors wielding 2 handed swords can defend as light foot and deal damage as armored foot for example if the referee so desired.
Wether they are using shields or not, is only a factor in dealing with missile fire. So you can have heavy foot (chain) and heavy foot (chain and shield) or heavy foot (naked+shield with a exceptional battlefield mass technique--like spartan warriors).
But a general idea is leather=light chain=heavy plate=armored, as it modifies movement rate as well, which does not apply to heroes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2012 14:25:12 GMT -6
As I understand the rules: The primary factor is the experience and training of the soldiers, with armor type being the "tie breaker" if they are in between categories (and necessary to fight as Armored obviously). Untrained peasants with the finest weapons & armor money can buy? Light Foot. Conan in a loincloth? Heavy Foot. Weapon type doesn't enter into the equation unless it's a pike or missile weapon or tiebreaker situation. Incorrect. Troop type is ENTIRELY dependent on armor type. Experience and training outside the norm is reflected in morale, which is why peasants have crap morale, even for light foot. Speaking as somebody who played CHAINMAIL with Gary Gygax. |
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Post by cooper on Nov 18, 2012 14:27:06 GMT -6
Well, the Swiss knight wears leather armor and wields a pike and defends as heavy foot when in close formation, when attacked from the rear or caught in open formation they defend as light foot...Viking berserkers are treated as wearing leather+shield even while fighting naked.
The default is armor determines troop type (which is why they are tied to movement rates as well), but the game is flexible and allows for exceptions in order to provide for historical approximation of deadliness in battle of certain types of troops or for certain types of fantasy forces; the wizard being a good example, Fighting as armored foot--presumably because of magical protection and not because they wear plate armor (especially since they fight as medium horse while mounted, which would put them in chain armor...)
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Post by thorswulf on Nov 18, 2012 15:50:33 GMT -6
Don't get me started about this. Dwarves got the shaft in the first printing and never got much better. They should fight as heavy ( at least) and defend as armored at a minimum!
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Post by cooper on Nov 18, 2012 15:54:50 GMT -6
Dwarves in tolkien never really struck me as being all the militaristic nor battle savvy. The are short, slow, they wear nothing more than chain armor. By 2nd edition d&d dwarves were somehow transformed into short norse vikings, but I think the original intent was somewhat nebbish, gold loving gnomes. They are to elves what goblins are to orcs. Weaker and smaller elfin cousins.
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Post by Mushgnome on Nov 18, 2012 15:58:59 GMT -6
As I understand the rules: The primary factor is the experience and training of the soldiers, with armor type being the "tie breaker" if they are in between categories (and necessary to fight as Armored obviously). Untrained peasants with the finest weapons & armor money can buy? Light Foot. Conan in a loincloth? Heavy Foot. Weapon type doesn't enter into the equation unless it's a pike or missile weapon or tiebreaker situation. Incorrect. Troop type is ENTIRELY dependent on armor type. Experience and training outside the norm is reflected in morale, which is why peasants have crap morale, even for light foot. Speaking as somebody who played CHAINMAIL with Gary Gygax. ^--- thanks for clearing that up, another reason why I love these forums.  My (faulty?) interpretation was based on "In a melee [peasants] will fight as light foot." [p.19] and the fact the troop classification table [p. 14-15] makes absolutely no mention of armor. For example Vikings are listed as Heavy Foot, I thought that was just because they were badass Viking warriors, not because they were necessarily all wearing matching chainmail armor. Maybe it's one of those things that was so obvious to the wargamers at the table that it wasn't deemed necessary to write it down. |
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Post by cooper on Nov 18, 2012 16:22:55 GMT -6
Gary of course did not write CHAINMAIL. He only wrote the fantasy supplement to that game. Later buying out Perrin's ownership of the material.
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Post by Mushgnome on Nov 18, 2012 16:30:22 GMT -6
Gary of course did not write CHAINMAIL. He only wrote the fantasy supplement to that game. Later buying out Perrin's ownership of the material. I did not know that; these forums rock! That totally revolutionizes how I think about the game. Is it safe to speculate the focus on specific armor/weapon matchups (i.e. the Man to Man table) was a Gygax influence on the game? I never met the man, but he certainly seemed to love his polearms... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2012 18:11:36 GMT -6
Gary of course did not write CHAINMAIL. He only wrote the fantasy supplement to that game. Later buying out Perrin's ownership of the material. Gary and Jeff co-wrote it off the "Siege of Bodenburg." You can tell Gary had heavy input into the historical rules just from the writing style. |
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Post by jmccann on Nov 18, 2012 19:17:42 GMT -6
Don't get me started about this. Dwarves got the shaft in the first printing and never got much better. They should fight as heavy ( at least) and defend as armored at a minimum! You should like the reprint 1st edition by WOTC, since dwarves now have 7 HD! |
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Matthew
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Master of the Silver Blade
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Post by Matthew on Nov 20, 2012 6:50:43 GMT -6
The key example of a troop type that does not go by armour type is the Swiss Landesknecht. Obviously most of the time armour type reflects troop type, but clearly not all the time.
If you get the chance, look at the early drafts of CM available on "Playing at the World"; in one example the movement rates were certainly 12/9/6 for light/heavy/armoured.
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Post by Jonathan Miller on Nov 20, 2012 16:05:55 GMT -6
The key example of a troop type that does not go by armour type is the Swiss Landesknecht. Obviously most of the time armour type reflects troop type, but clearly not all the time. If you get the chance, look at the early drafts of CM available on "Playing at the World"; in one example the movement rates were certainly 12/9/6 for light/heavy/armoured. Based on your reply, and the feedback from this thread, it sounds like one should assume as a default that light=leather, heavy=chain, and armored=plate, and that the general move rate by armor worn is 12/9/6, respectively. Swiss/Landsknechte are an exception to the general rule, and the fact that they fight as a better class than their armor would indicate can be thought of as a "special ability" of theirs. Thanks for the suggestion to look at Playing at the World. I have a copy of the book, but haven't finished reading it yet. I do have a question, though: are you referring here to the book, or to the blog of the same name? |
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Matthew
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Master of the Silver Blade
Posts: 254
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Post by Matthew on Nov 22, 2012 3:52:04 GMT -6
Based on your reply, and the feedback from this thread, it sounds like one should assume as a default that light=leather, heavy=chain, and armored=plate, and that the general move rate by armor worn is 12/9/6, respectively. Swiss/Landsknechte are an exception to the general rule, and the fact that they fight as a better class than their armor would indicate can be thought of as a "special ability" of theirs. Yes, I think that is pretty reasonable. Also, only light troops should be deployed in skirmish order (with greater than 1" between figures, if I recall). Thanks for the suggestion to look at Playing at the World. I have a copy of the book, but haven't finished reading it yet. I do have a question, though: are you referring here to the book, or to the blog of the same name? In this case the blog, as it hosts copies of the pre-publication CM rules as they appeared in various fanzines and newsletters at the time. |
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jacar
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Post by jacar on Apr 17, 2013 15:53:29 GMT -6
Armor and fighting ability all are factored into troop type. For historical armies, the types are pretty homogeneous. Heavy foot attacks and defends as heavy foot...presumably with mail armor and shield. However, Dwarves fight as heavy foot but defend as light foot. It's really all about the matchup in the end. Heavy foot fighting heavy foot get 1 die per man with a 6 removing a figure. Training is more a function of the morale resolution at the end of melee. The well trained few will still push back the poorly trained many in a fight.
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