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Post by Mike on Oct 16, 2012 0:20:08 GMT -6
Hi folks, As my brain is sub-prime, could some brave soul provide an example of the subdual rules in play? Thanks heaps  |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 16, 2012 1:32:20 GMT -6
Hi Hogscape,
Fighting to subdue is an excellent option for players to bring (intelligent) monsters to heel by intimidation.
Imagine a group of four 1st level fighters surprise a lone Ogre. The players announce their intent to subdue and then roll a round of surprise attacks -- all delivered to subdue rather than to slay.
The players make their attack rolls (4d20=3, 1, 19, 14) versus the Ogre's AC of 5 (with attacks modified by +2 for surprise) which makes 2 hits. The successful players roll to determine the subdual damage they have caused (2d6=2, 4) and find it is 6 points in total.
The referee rolls the Ogre's 4+1 HD and finds that the Ogre has a total of 16 hit points. (The referee would also roll to determine whether the surprise hits will cause the Ogre to drop whatever it was carrying, with each hit having a 1 in 3 chance of doing so).
At this moment in time the Ogre still has its full 16 hit points, but has 10 of 16 subdual points remaining.
The Ogre cannot retaliate this round because it was surprised, so it is the end of the round. Now the referee determines whether or not the Ogre has been subdued. 6/16 = .375 so there is a 37.5% chance the Ogre will be subdued by the surprise attack.
The referee can determine this with a d% roll as described in M&T (p12-13), or by whatever other means he decides.
With the percentile method, the referee would roll d% and any result of 38 or less would indicate that the Ogre has been subdued.
Personally, I prefer the subdual outcome to be part of a regular 2d6 morale roll. Given that I know there is a 28% chance of rolling a 6+ on 2d6, and a 42% chance of rolling 7+, I would rule that the Ogre is subdued if its morale roll is a 6 or less.
Any monsters that is subdued will obey its subduers for a time, can possibly be sold, or can be brought into service as a retainer (with a suitable offer of employment).
However, if the monster is not subdued, then the players have not caused it any real harm and it has its full hit points. It can continue to fight as usual.
Nothing is stated explicitly (either in the original or in DD) about what should happen when more subdual damage has been dealt that then monster has real hit points. In this scenario, I would most likely rule that the monster is beaten into submission, and is automatically subdued.
Note, however, that only intelligent monsters can be subdued, and some monster types cannot be subdued in any case.
edit: spelling
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idrahil
Level 6 Magician
The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
Posts: 398
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Post by idrahil on Oct 16, 2012 8:22:18 GMT -6
Speaking of Morale, is the intent that the GM determine an enemy's morale when checking it? Or is there a base morale for each type of enemy that I missed in the books?
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Post by kesher on Oct 16, 2012 8:48:33 GMT -6
WoE, awesome explanation!
Idrahil, specific morale for each creature is a product of later editions (though it took me awhile to realize that, since I started with Moldvay basic...)
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Post by owlorbs on Oct 16, 2012 9:20:06 GMT -6
Wow, super example. I really need to bring subdual into my game more.
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Post by ravenheart87 on Oct 16, 2012 11:21:50 GMT -6
Very good example. Too bad my players never really try to subdue monsters.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 16, 2012 15:31:30 GMT -6
Speaking of Morale, is the intent that the GM determine an enemy's morale when checking it? Or is there a base morale for each type of enemy that I missed in the books? Without house ruling, morale is handled in DD as it is in the original. That is, morale is a regular reaction roll (2d6) adjusted by the ref for circumstances. The outcome is interpreted by the referee, with guidance from the standard reaction table. There are some monsters that have higher or lower morale, and this is given in the monster description as a morale roll adjustment. E.g., gnolls have +2 to morale rolls, and so on. Of course, the ref is most welcome to house rule to suit his own particular game  |
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Post by machfront on Oct 17, 2012 0:18:26 GMT -6
Hi Hogscape,  0.0 I....don't think I'll use subdual damage, thanks. ;D |
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Post by ehiker133 on Oct 17, 2012 7:36:04 GMT -6
Hi Hogscape, 0.0 I....don't think I'll use subdual damage, thanks. ;D Ugh. Seriously. DM: "Ok, I give! I give!" Player One: "Umm... were you speaking in character for the ogre?" DM: "No, for me. I give! Let's just say you subdued him." And those kids have nobody to blame but themselves. They saw the size of that chalk board the first day of class. If they didn't drop at that point, well, then... *shrugs* That's their fault. Personally, I'd have never taken a class with a chalk board so big for fear the professor might actually use all of it. |
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Post by kesher on Oct 17, 2012 8:27:47 GMT -6
He obviously had his familiar write all that...
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Post by talysman on Oct 30, 2012 16:46:43 GMT -6
I'm using the first pre-press version of the referee's guide PDF, so perhaps this was changed already, but: shouldn't the subdual rules mention roll d% for the chance to subdue? Or maybe a percentage column can be added to the reaction/morale table? Because right now, the way it reads suggests these steps: - Divide subduing damage by total hit points and convert to a percentage;
- Roll morale on 2d6; a total less than the percentage means the opponent is subdued.
...Which would result in far more frequent subduing of ogres; that 2-point attack in your example would have subdued the ogre immediately. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2012 17:11:01 GMT -6
I'm going to let WotE answer that one, but I'm thinking the use of the term "Morale" is a simple misstep in the writing process.
edit for clarity ...
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 30, 2012 18:13:56 GMT -6
I'm using the first pre-press version of the referee's guide PDF, so perhaps this was changed already, I'm pretty sure (but not 100% certain) that part wasn't updated... but: shouldn't the subdual rules mention roll d% for the chance to subdue? Or maybe a percentage column can be added to the reaction/morale table? Because right now, the way it reads suggests these steps: - Divide subduing damage by total hit points and convert to a percentage;
- Roll morale on 2d6; a total less than the percentage means the opponent is subdued.
That doesn't sound right, if that's the way it reads. I will have another look at it after work tonight. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Oct 30, 2012 18:28:33 GMT -6
He obviously had his familiar write all that... Unless he has really long arms hidden under that jacket ...  |
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Post by ravenheart87 on Oct 30, 2012 23:14:00 GMT -6
He obviously had his familiar write all that... Unless he has really long arms hidden under that jacket ... You mean... he's the slenderman? |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 31, 2012 3:06:11 GMT -6
but: shouldn't the subdual rules mention roll d% for the chance to subdue? Or maybe a percentage column can be added to the reaction/morale table? Because right now, the way it reads suggests these steps: - Divide subduing damage by total hit points and convert to a percentage;
- Roll morale on 2d6; a total less than the percentage means the opponent is subdued.
The text reads "Morale is then checked and any result lower than the percentage of subdual damage sustained indicates the monster is subdued." "Morale" was an unfortunate word given that "morale" has its own specific meaning (as explained in the very next section). Rereading it now, I think it was intended to read "morale" as in "confidence". The text would therefore be less ambiguous if it instead read "Confidence is then checked with a hundred-sided die and any result lower than the percentage of subdual damage sustained indicates the monster is subdued." Duly noted for the errata, thanks guys. |
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Post by talysman on Oct 31, 2012 11:30:54 GMT -6
Thanks for the quick response; I figured it might just be a wording issue.
I've been doing a multi-part critique/analysis of the DD rules on my blog and will be covering referee's guide rules tomorrow. I'll include the clarification for subduing.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 31, 2012 17:09:44 GMT -6
I've been doing a multi-part critique/analysis of the DD rules on my blog Nice! Which one is your blog? |
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Post by talysman on Oct 31, 2012 17:31:03 GMT -6
I've been doing a multi-part critique/analysis of the DD rules on my blog Nice! Which one is your blog? I think I'm already on your daily reading list, but there it is, if you aren't. |
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