Magic armor and hit dice

[Stormcrow]

Hmm. M&T p. 31: "Armor proper subtracts its bonus from the hit dice of the opponents of its wearer." This seems to be a strong indicator that when using the man-to-man tables for melee, monsters with more than one hit die attacking characters with more than one hit die still get multiple rolls, rather than just one roll. If that is the case, the note on p. 5 about "Attack/Defense capabilities versus normal men" doesn't apply just to fighting normal men, but fighting anyone using the man-to-man tables.

Maybe the "versus normal men" part is meant to distinguish man-to-man combat from the fantasy combat table.

In any case, the power of a shield +1 is interesting. It's good as a shield, but it's magic is only effective if its magic bonus is greater than any armor magic bonus of the user, and even then it only helps one-third of the time.

Thus, in a fight of Warrior vs. troll:

Normal chainmail with normal shield: troll rolls 6 times (with +3 on one roll).

Chainmail +1 with normal shield: troll rolls 5 times with +3 (etc.).

Normal chainmail with shield +1: roll d6: 1-2 troll rolls 5 times; 3-6 troll roll 6 times.

Chainmail +1 with shield +1: troll rolls 5 times.

Chainmail +2 with shield +1: troll rolls 4 times.

Chainmail +1 with shield +2: roll d6: 1-2 troll rolls 3 times; 3-6 troll rolls 5 times.

And so forth.

Presumably if you're using the Fantasy Combat Table the pluses only subtract from the opponent's 2d6 roll; this is not actually stated anywhere.

[Stormcrow]

No, now that I think about it, that may not be the only interpretation. "subtracts its bonus from the hit dice" might mean armor +1 changes the troll's 6+3 HD into 6+2.

What a tiny effect it has!

Which interpretation is correct, I wonder?

[llenlleawg]

The thing to recall is that, when the LBBs were written, there was far less concern/desire for an absolute consistency of terminology. The phrase "hit dice" is a(n) (in)famous example. It *can* mean the number of dice rolled to yield hit points, and thus also a measure of chance to hit, saving throws, etc. It is also used simply to mean "roll to hit". Since in practice the latter interpretation was used, we should reasonably presume that the "subtracts its bonus from the hit dice" is nothing more complicated than "subtracts its bonus from the opponent's roll to hit."

[mgtremaine]

That's how I always so read it also. I thought it was written like that to preserve the "meaning of Armor Class. That is AC 2 would always mean Plate+Shield if you do not change AC because of magic bonus. [Also note that in OD&D Dex gave no bonus to AC].

-Mike

[Finarvyn]

Sept 28, 2012 22:52:33 GMT -6 llenlleawg said:

The phrase "hit dice" ... is also used simply to mean "roll to hit". Since in practice the latter interpretation was used, we should reasonably presume that the "subtracts its bonus from the hit dice" is nothing more complicated than "subtracts its bonus from the opponent's roll to hit."

This is the way I interpret it as well. (Big snip in the original post to trim out the other interpretation.)

[Deleted]

For what it's worth that's how Gary and Dave both did it.

[Alex]

Michael, please elaborate. I've asked every Con VIP I've met about those early days. Every one that played with Gary, counting even Tim and Rob, said that even at the very beginning Gary never used any combat system but the "Alternate" system. Since this topic is pointing out something with regard to Fighting Capability, how do Gary and Dave come into it?

To everyone, I keep seeing the use of "Man-to-Man" in posts here, but that doesn't make sense in the context of some of the comments, like reducing numbers of dice rolled. The Man-to-Man system was a more detailed 2d6 system than the default Chainmail mass combat system. Most people call that one MC (or rarely CMC) and that is what I believe you all are trying to say.

[Stormcrow]

I believe that when "hit dice" meant the number of times you roll on the man-to-man tables in addition to the number of dice you rolled for hit points, a "die" was a 2d6 roll.

A Curate has 4+1 HD, so he gets four 2d6 rolls against the man-to-man melee table, with a +1 on one of the rolls, which counts as a single attack. His Fighting Capability is 3 Men +1, so he fights in the skirmish rules as three appropriately armored foot or horse, with a +1 to one of the dice. He cannot hit on the fantasy combat table unless he has a magic weapon that can let him fight as a Hero (each +1 to a magic weapon lets the character fight as one level higher, I think, so a +1 mace would let a Curate fight as a Bishop, who fights as a Hero-1).

[Deleted]

My response was that mgtremaine's and Fin's response to post 2 was correct. (phew!)