The Wilderness Architect

[palmer]

And he's trawling about the internet, I just got a comment from him on an older blog post which wasn't there yesterday.

[badger2305]

Sept 6, 2009 19:48:48 GMT -6 palmer said:

And he's trawling about the internet, I just got a comment from him on an older blog post which wasn't there yesterday.

It's true. I do exist. Took awhile to defeat the cardboard box monster.

[badger2305]

Have a question for people: would people consider buying The Wilderness Architect if I put it together for sale through Lulu?

• I have some additional material I want to include, some of it from Gygax about campaign set-up. Some additional art is also planned.
  
• I'm curious if people wanted additional examples of how it works.
  
• I'd want to keep it relatively inexpensive.
  

What do you all think?

[greyharp]

There's been a couple of old school products that started life either on a forum or blog, but have been fleshed out and polished up, then put up for sale. I've happily bought those partly to support the OSR and partly in anticipation of the extra materials.

In this case I've already copied the article from the forum AND paid money to own it in Fight On! But yes, I'll gladly buy the Wilderness Architect again as a separate product. Reading it over a couple of issues of the magazine is not as convenient or satisfying as having it in its own single volume. Additional examples would be good if it doesn't add too much to the cost of the product.

I should point out that, as an international customer, I would only buy the product from Lulu if it is available as a pdf. If it is to be a print only item then the postal rates will exclude me.

[Deleted]

Jan 2, 2010 14:22:12 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

Have a question for people: would people consider buying The Wilderness Architect if I put it together for sale through Lulu?

What do you all think?

I would buy a copy.

[coffee]

I would buy one, also. It'd be nice to have it all in one book.

[badger2305]

Jan 2, 2010 14:49:36 GMT -6 Greyharp said:

There's been a couple of old school products that started life either on a forum or blog, but have been fleshed out and polished up, then put up for sale. I've happily bought those partly to support the OSR and partly in anticipation of the extra materials.

In this case I've already copied the article from the forum AND paid money to own it in Fight On! But yes, I'll gladly buy the Wilderness Architect again as a separate product. Reading it over a couple of issues of the magazine is not as convenient or satisfying as having it in its own single volume. Additional examples would be good if it doesn't add too much to the cost of the product.

I should point out that, as an international customer, I would only buy the product from Lulu if it is available as a pdf. If it is to be a print only item then the postal rates will exclude me.

Yes. I had noticed that Lulu is most unfriendly to international buyers of material, so my intent would be to put it up both as a PDF and as a print book.

As far as length is concerned, I want it to be as cheap to produce as possible, so that people don't have to shell out a lot of money for unnecessary product. To be expected, I also want it to look good. So there's a balancing act - but the idea would be to keep it inexpensive - and length of book affects that.

[grodog]

Jan 2, 2010 14:22:12 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

What do you all think?

I'd almost certainly buy it, Victor.

[yesmar]

I'd buy it, too. It's very informative.

[giantbat]

I was always disappointed it was only published in Fight On! and not independently. I would buy a copy.

[eris]

Jan 2, 2010 14:22:12 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

What do you all think?

I think I would buy it, that's what I think.

Like has already been written, I printed out the original posts here, bought the FO issues, and would still buy it in book form especially as you've expanded it to include things not in the FO articles.

BTW, what ever happened to Coffee's attempts to use 2d6's for some of the tables? I think a normal distribution would be preferred to a uniform one in many cases. For example: let's say rolling 6,7 might mean the previous hex's terrain type is repeated (30% chance), while numbers to either side might mean a new terrain type, perhaps offsetting on a table.

Something like...

***First Modifications: (a) Repeated the terrain types with highest elevation in the middle working toward lower elevations; (b) Increased the "same" range to 6-8 (44% same) -- inspired by Snorri's comments.

1. Pick a starting terrain for the initial hex.

2. Roll 2d6 and find the next hex by
a. finding the offset for the new hex's terrain
b. staying the same, or moving up or down on the Terrain Type table

3. Repeat for subsequent hexes.


Terrain Types (wrap around in both directions)
Water
Swamp
Desert/Steppe
Grassland/Savanna
Forest/Jungle
Hills
Mountains
Hills
Forest/Jungle
Grasslands/Savanna
Desert/Steppe
Swamp
Water

Roll 2d6  Terrain Type
   2         up four
   3         up three
   4         up two
   5         up one
   6         same
   7         same
   8         same
   9         down one
 10         down two
 11         down three
 12         down four


[badger2305]

I like that idea. Let me play with that a little. Hmmm! Thank you both!

[snorri]

Just a try on a few hex My advice:

- I cheated, using jungle hills instead of hills, so it harmonize a bit ( I choose jungle because I'm designing an AD&D module in a jungle...)

- I started in the middle and then did a spiral. Not always easy to remeber when I am, but its part of the randomness..

- it should work nicely in game, if you have to roll for the next hex, and don't mind about doing a whole map.

- 6 and 7 for "same result" is probaby not a wide range enough to get large bands of terrain. It shoud be broader (5-9, probably).

- For a brainless guy like me, going 5 up on a even list (which means, going back to the begning is a little to much. But if you broaden the middle range, the change would be less important.

[coffee]

Jan 5, 2010 15:10:46 GMT -6 eris said:

BTW, what ever happened to Coffee's attempts to use 2d6's for some of the tables?

Coffee had an "Oooh! Shiny!" moment and started fiddling about with something else.

Happens all the time, especially as I get older.

Thanks for picking up the ball I dropped. I like what you've done here. Have an exalt!

[badger2305]

Jan 5, 2010 15:52:44 GMT -6 snorri said:

Just a try on a few hex My advice:

- I cheated, using jungle hills instead of hills, so it harmonize a bit ( I choose jungle because I'm designing an AD&D module in a jungle...)

- I started in the middle and then did a spiral. Not always easy to remeber when I am, but its part of the randomness..

- it should work nicely in game, if you have to roll for the next hex, and don't mind about doing a whole map.

- 6 and 7 for "same result" is probaby not a wide range enough to get large bands of terrain. It shoud be broader (5-9, probably).

- For a brainless guy like me, going 5 up on a even list (which means, going back to the begning is a little to much. But if you broaden the middle range, the change would be less important.

Good stuff!

Evil comment time:
Mind you, at the scale we're looking at, you might as well do an 8x10 area (we'll call it a "sub-sector" ) and then do maybe a 4x4 grid of those areas (we'll call it a "sector"). Such an area would be fairly large, which could serve as a duchy (or perhaps kingdom). Then all you need is a catchy name for such an area, say on the border of a larger empire. Call it the "Northwest Marches" or some such like.

(And for any Traveller/Wanderer fans out there, my apologies. I'm not *sorry*, but I do apologize. )

[eris]

Jan 5, 2010 17:58:44 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

Evil comment time:
Mind you, at the scale we're looking at, you might as well do an 8x10 area (we'll call it a "sub-sector" ) and then do maybe a 4x4 grid of those areas (we'll call it a "sector"). Such an area would be fairly large, which could serve as a duchy (or perhaps kingdom). Then all you need is a catchy name for such an area, say on the border of a larger empire. Call it the "Northwest Marches" or some such like.

(And for any Traveller/Wanderer fans out there, my apologies. I'm not *sorry*, but I do apologize. )

No need to apologize, that sounds like a *great* idea to me!

Eris, The Traveller Heretic

[ragnorakk]

I'd be interested in getting a copy of it indeedy! Especially one expanded from the board version.

[snorri]

A bit like this one, so?

I completed the same map with Eris edits on the table. My remarks:
- the chances to have the same terrain seems better.

- having several time the same terrain in the list is fine, but I never remember whch one I rolled before, so I pick one by hazard an go up / down

- The problem for the terrain is, once again, it's better if you roll for the hex you enter and know which one you leave. Maybe it should have a modifier deending on how much terrain of a type allready surround that hex. But more complexity. Or have "dominant terrain" for the sector and a sub-table for each type (tehre's a method like this in AD&D DMG).

[badger2305]

This looks quite good. I will say that I've found some additional material from Gary about setting up campaigns (from the Europa wargaming 'zine by Walter Luc Haas). It pretty much confirms what I've figured out so far, but I need to integrate it into the whole article and see how it all turns out.

Edit: looking back, I see I mentioned this already. Now that I've read it more closely, I find that there's a ton of specific material about campaign set-up. I only wish I could find the other issues of Europa that had his other articles.

[grodog]

Jan 17, 2010 19:30:08 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

Edit: looking back, I see I mentioned this already. Now that I've read it more closely, I find that there's a ton of specific material about campaign set-up. I only wish I could find the other issues of Europa that had his other articles.

I'm working on that, Victor....

[Deleted]

*BUMP*

Any news regarding a standalone copy of this work? This is a truly useful system and would make for a fine OD&D supplement.

[Mike]

I'll have to cut and paste this fine piece of work...

[xerxez]

The articles on this thread and ensuing comments are some of the best stuff I have read.

I will be using a lot of it! Many thanks.

I decided to use the Outdoor Survival Board for my Holmes game as others have suggested.

It's working out great so far, and I have found a ton of useful information on how to scale and expand the map on this board.

I posted my revised and edited map on my blog.

jennerak.blogspot.com/

[grodog]

Victor and I touched on the WA in passing while discussing various publishing topics at the NTX RPG Con this past weekend.

[snorri]

Awesome map Xerxez!

[Deleted]

Experiment are on its high in the one of the creative field work of architecture and this is result of sharp observation of the creativity.
__________________________________
Architect Dublin Work

[tetramorph]

badger2305, this is amazing work. Thanks for this contribution.

I was linked to this from a recent thread of my own where I was working on how to build a wilderness map for my own campaign.

Thanks for the help!

[badger2305]

I cast Thread Necromancy!

After several years caught up in academia, and now having stepped away from that, I am revisiting the Wilderness Architect. I've discovered there is a section missing from it, having to do with the Outdoor Survival map, which we never used when I first started gaming. Given the inclusion of the Outdoor Survival map in The Underworld and Wilderness Adventures, I realized it should get looked at and discussed. There have been several threads on this board that have looked at Outdoor Survival, its rules and map, but I think there's room for addition analysis and evaluation.

[badger2305]

The Outdoor Survival Map in D&D

So what exactly was the role of Outdoor Survival in Original D&D? That's a good question.

To begin with, the Outdoor Survival map was used as an additional area to the south of the original Blackmoor map - but not the game rules for it:

Sept 30, 2008 20:02:31 GMT -6 darneson said:

To clarify. We used the map for the map's sake; no, not ever the game.

Dave Arneson
"Dark Lord of Gaming"

The inclusion of the Outdoor Survival map in The Underworld and Wilderness Adventures was partially due to this usage, and also possibly due to the relationship that Gary had developed with Avalon Hill while working on the revised version of the Alexander the Great board game, originally published by Guidon Games. But how exactly the map was to be used wasn't all that clear from the instructions provided in Volume 3:

The terrain beyond the immediate surroundings of the dungeon area should be unknown to all but the referee. Offhand adventures in the wilderness are made on the Outdoor Survival playing board (explained below). Exploratory journeys, such as expeditions to find land suitable for a castle or in search of some legendary treasure are handled in an entirely different manner.

Outdoor Survival has a playing board perfect for general adventures. Catch basins are castles, buildings are towns, and the balance of the terrain is as indicated.

What's interesting here is that Gary is quite clear that the Outdoor Survival map is separate from the map of the area immediately around the dungeon, which would also include the town nearby used for respite by the adventuring party or parties. There's a tantalizing vagueness to this relationship, which never really gets resolved in Volume 3 or elsewhere. In particular, what is meant by "offhand adventures" or "general adventures" as distinct from any other sort of adventure isn't really clear. It can be reasonably inferred that the Outdoor Survival map was intended as something of a default option for wilderness, failing any exploratory work done prior to the campaign by the referee, or during the campaign by the players:

REFEREE’S MAP is a wilderness map unknown to the players. It should be for the territory around the dungeon location. When players venture into this area they should have a blank hexagon map, and as their move over each hex the referee will inform them as to what kind of terrain is in that hex.

The exact relationship between the Outdoor Survival map and the "Referee's Map" is never defined. (I'll come back to that later.)

[badger2305]

The Problem of Scale

Over time, there has been a lot of attention paid to the scale of the Outdoor Survival map. In the Outdoor Survival rules, it says:

The mapboard is a representation of approximately 13,200 square miles of wilderness.

The map board itself is 34 hexes by 43 hexes. Some quick math reveals that a 3 mile (or 5km) distance across each hex provides a 102 mile by 129 mile area, providing an area of 13,158 miles - nicely approximating the figure provided in the rules. But on page 17 of The Underworld and Wilderness Adventures, Gary provides a different measure:

Scale: Assume the greatest distance across each hex is about 5 miles.

This actually helps explain the difference between the measures found in Outdoor Survival for distance someone may travel in a day, and those provided by Gary on page 16 of Volume 3. From Outdoor Survival:

For example, a person starting out in Life Level "A" can move through 6 clear hexes per turn. [NB: about 18 miles]

This can be contrasted with the guidelines found on page 16:

Exploration by foot is at normal speed...
Movement:

Type:	# of Hexes/td]
Man on foot	3 [NB: about 15 mi.]

[The rest of the table has been omitted]

Given that Gary was attempting to provide a default background (or stand-in setting) for the referee to use until they had devised their own above-ground map, the differences in scale and distance are relatively minor - but they are also indicative of how both Dave and Gary adapted the map to the needs of D&D, rather than suggesting that D&D wilderness adventures should somehow get slotted into the strictures of the rules of Outdoor Survival.

One more note: In "How To Set Up Your Dungeons & Dragons Campaign - And Be Stuck Refereeing It Seven Days Per Week Until The Wee Hours Of The Morning!" in Europa #6-8, Gary suggests a much smaller scale for the referee's map:

Step 2 requires sitting down with a large piece of hex ruled paper and drawing a large scale map. A map with a scale of 1 hex = 1 mile (or 2 kilometers for those of you who go in for recent faddish modes of measure) (yes, I often use rods, chains, furlongs, and leagues too!) will allow you to use your imagination to devise some interesting terrain and places, and it will be about right for player operations such as exploring, camping, adventuring, and eventually building their strongholds. Even such small things as a witch's hut and side entrances to the dungeon can be shown on the map. The central features of the map must be the major town and the dungeon entrance.

...but again, the relationship between this map and the Outdoor Survival map is left completely undefined. Moreover, Gary's suggestion of using a much smaller scale (1 hex = 1 mile across) isn't congruent in any way with the distance-traveled figures provided in Volume 3; the math - and resulting scaling issues - are left up to the referee to figure out. My suspicion is that Gary was attempting to provide more useful advice about how to approach the issue of starting a campaign, rather than paying attention about how to square all of that with Outdoor Survival, as he was writing his article about a year after the initial release of OD&D. That isn't to say that the Outdoor Survival map isn't useful - but trying to interpret how to use it will take some more work.