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Post by grodog on Apr 27, 2008 9:35:06 GMT -6
badger--- Your article presents some excellent summaries and extrapolations from the OD&D rulebooks, as well as some seemingly-well-thought-out systems (I haven't tried them out yet, hence the hedging). And while all of that is good stuff, what I found lacking---in particular in comparison to the Dungeon Architect---was some more concrete design suggestions and inspirational musings on the hazards, quirks, and "specials" of the wilderness: the wilderness equivalents to teleport traps, lots of vertical dungeon features/movement, etc. (Following Musson's structure, the Part 2, The Constructed Dungeon content, in particular). (Perhaps also consider addressing weather, which is pretty crucial to wilderness adventuring, and also other less-common terrains/events in the wild like volcanoes, rift valleys, river fords, earthquakes, and floods, as well as more fantastic terrains such as cloud castles, planar boundaries, moving islands, etc.---some of that may be too far beyond your scope, though??). In any event, I do like what you've done so far---I'd just love to see you push the envelope further. In fact, I've also been looking for some good wilderness articles to incorporate into a book on dungeon/wilderness/campaign design (details @ odd74.proboards76.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=42), so if you're interested in expanding the article further, do please email me  |
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Post by badger2305 on Apr 27, 2008 10:13:38 GMT -6
badger--- Your article presents some excellent summaries and extrapolations from the OD&D rulebooks, as well as some seemingly-well-thought-out systems (I haven't tried them out yet, hence the hedging). And while all of that is good stuff, what I found lacking---in particular in comparison to the Dungeon Architect---was some more concrete design suggestions and inspirational musings on the hazards, quirks, and "specials" of the wilderness: the wilderness equivalents to teleport traps, lots of vertical dungeon features/movement, etc. (Following Musson's structure, the Part 2, The Constructed Dungeon content, in particular). (Perhaps also consider addressing weather, which is pretty crucial to wilderness adventuring, and also other less-common terrains/events in the wild like volcanoes, rift valleys, river fords, earthquakes, and floods, as well as more fantastic terrains such as cloud castles, planar boundaries, moving islands, etc.---some of that may be too far beyond your scope, though??). In any event, I do like what you've done so far---I'd just love to see you push the envelope further. In fact, I've also been looking for some good wilderness articles to incorporate into a book on dungeon/wilderness/campaign design (details @ www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=506043), so if you're interested in expanding the article further, do please email me Actually, my copies of those particular White Dwarfs are in Minneapolis, and I'm in Ames, and just haven't run up the road recently. ( additional note: if anyone has those articles scanned in, and could send them to me, I would be most appreciative) That having been said, yes - I do want to expand this further (it's already up to 18 pages, more or less), and include many of the things you've talked about. I might have to stray a bit from Musson's original structure, but let me take a look at those articles again, as well as some others, and do a bit more work. |
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Post by greyharp on May 3, 2008 20:57:17 GMT -6
Excellent piece of work badger and incredibly useful. I can't wait to try it out when life slows down a bit. I hope you do get around to expanding it.
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Post by coffee on May 4, 2008 23:05:22 GMT -6
I think my dice hate me. I'm getting an awful lot of steppe.
In other words, yes, I have tried it -- or started to. I'm having trouble buying the amount of steppe next to woods, next to mountains, etc. And the multi-hex desert isn't fitting into my idea of "European" terrain.
Naturally, I next wrote up my own tables. Or rather, I tried; it's not as easy as it looks and I have a deeper appreciation for the work you did.
I'm going to start over and try again, probably tomorrow night. I'll let you know how it goes.
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jjarvis
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 278
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Post by jjarvis on May 5, 2008 6:03:32 GMT -6
whipped out a blank wilderlands hex map and whipped up a map. It was fun and worked rather well. I certainly got a map I might have never created in a non-random fashion.
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Post by badger2305 on May 5, 2008 7:38:03 GMT -6
I think my dice hate me. I'm getting an awful lot of steppe. In other words, yes, I have tried it -- or started to. I'm having trouble buying the amount of steppe next to woods, next to mountains, etc. And the multi-hex desert isn't fitting into my idea of "European" terrain. Naturally, I next wrote up my own tables. Or rather, I tried; it's not as easy as it looks and I have a deeper appreciation for the work you did. I'm going to start over and try again, probably tomorrow night. I'll let you know how it goes. Yes, I went through several iterations before I got something I was satisfied with. Generating other tables is certainly worth trying. Here are a few observations that might help: - Whatever terrain you start with has a fairly strong effect on what follows (not surprising, how I designed things). So one thing to do is simply decide on the "seed" terrain, and go from there. You want a castle in the midst of hills? Start with hills, then.
- In the case of desert, I had remind myself that the vast swathes of undulating sand dunes are only one kind of desert. I discovered with a little bit of research that there are a lot of different kinds - there's a desert in Canada, of all places. But size and desert seemed to be correlated.
- Keep in mind, the random method is about the same as the random dungeon generator - you need to work to make things fit, so don't be afraid of just changing things, or deciding how you want things to go, from time to time.
In all of this, work a little to explain things to yourself before tossing it all out. You might find a curious pattern or arrangement in all of it. Or you might find yourself with lots of steppe and no plans for Genghis Khan. Keep that map for someplace else and start over. |
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Post by coffee on May 5, 2008 8:50:33 GMT -6
There's another thing I noticed. I have a couple of different sets of hex paper, both from TSR. One is in the Cook/Marsh Expert Set, the other is from some AD&D mapping set from the late 80's. Both of them have terrain keys with symbols to use in your own maps, but neither of them has "steppe" as a terrain type. Just sayin', is all.
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Post by badger2305 on May 5, 2008 9:03:40 GMT -6
There's another thing I noticed. I have a couple of different sets of hex paper, both from TSR. One is in the Cook/Marsh Expert Set, the other is from some AD&D mapping set from the late 80's. Both of them have terrain keys with symbols to use in your own maps, but neither of them has "steppe" as a terrain type. Just sayin', is all. Steppe = arid plains, in UW&WA. (whatever that means) You've got a thing in for steppes, don't you?  |
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Post by coffee on May 5, 2008 9:06:30 GMT -6
You've got a thing in for steppes, don't you? Not me, man; it's my dice! They keep trying to foist off Steppe on me, when all I want a nice forested bit of hills, maybe the odd swamp or lake... |
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Post by badger2305 on May 5, 2008 9:37:23 GMT -6
You've got a thing in for steppes, don't you? Not me, man; it's my dice! They keep trying to foist off Steppe on me, when all I want a nice forested bit of hills, maybe the odd swamp or lake... This reminds me...I generated about four different maps before I found something that I liked. The first three were fine; they just didn't speak to me like the fourth one did. The third one in particular was interesting - a line of hills along the western edge, and a forested coastline along the northern edge, and this vast marsh to the south, with a lake in the middle. I charted some streams and a river to help make sense of it, and the set it aside to do number four. I don't regard these initial attempts as failures. Rather, they are other parts of the map I haven't figured out yet. On a different note, if you do come up with other charts (tundra? mountains? jungle?) post 'em here. Or if you have variations on existing themes, go for it. I want to keep the mechanics for this simple, as I also want to encourage people playing around more than making it "perfect" (whatever that is). |
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Post by badger2305 on May 5, 2008 9:41:03 GMT -6
whipped out a blank wilderlands hex map and whipped up a map. It was fun and worked rather well. I certainly got a map I might have never created in a non-random fashion. Did you put in a stronghold and villages? ;D If you can scan it in, show us what you got! (in terms of maps) |
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Post by coffee on May 5, 2008 9:56:09 GMT -6
I don't regard these initial attempts as failures. Rather, they are other parts of the map I haven't figured out yet. Exactly. I haven't thrown anything away; I'm just not happy with this as a 'home base' area. What I started working on was a 2d6 table. It's more predictable, with the bell curve, but you can still get some extreme results. Different areas of your continent? Just give a plus or minus one. I'm still fiddling, but I'll let you know what I come up with. |
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Post by badger2305 on May 5, 2008 11:33:55 GMT -6
What I started working on was a 2d6 table. It's more predictable, with the bell curve, but you can still get some extreme results. Different areas of your continent? Just give a plus or minus one. I'm still fiddling, but I'll let you know what I come up with. If you get something worked up, please send me a PM. Thanks! |
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Post by coffee on May 5, 2008 12:04:49 GMT -6
If you get something worked up, please send me a PM. Thanks! Certainly. |
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Post by badger2305 on Jul 8, 2008 21:11:19 GMT -6
And while all of that is good stuff, what I found lacking---in particular in comparison to the Dungeon Architect---was some more concrete design suggestions and inspirational musings on the hazards, quirks, and "specials" of the wilderness: the wilderness equivalents to teleport traps, lots of vertical dungeon features/movement, etc. (Following Musson's structure, the Part 2, The Constructed Dungeon content, in particular). (Perhaps also consider addressing weather, which is pretty crucial to wilderness adventuring, and also other less-common terrains/events in the wild like volcanoes, rift valleys, river fords, earthquakes, and floods, as well as more fantastic terrains such as cloud castles, planar boundaries, moving islands, etc.---some of that may be too far beyond your scope, though??). In any event, I do like what you've done so far---I'd just love to see you push the envelope further. After a bit of a hiatus, I am working on The Wilderness Architect, Part Four. It will include: - Refereeing the wilderness; it's not a dungeon.
- Encounters, traps, and other wilderness hazards
- Weather and climate, and how to make it more than just a nuisance
- Significant natural terrain features - rift valleys, canyons, mountains, volcanoes, etc.
- Fantastical elements such as castles in the air, elven forests, planar boundaries, and adventures in outer space!
- ...and a few other things
Part of the problem is that a complete listing of all of this would take a complete book. So some of this will be sketched in, with the detailing left to the referee to undertake. One thing that is probably the hardest thing to do is not letting the wilderness run away with you ("just one kingdom more..."). More to follow shortly. |
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Post by grodog on Jul 10, 2008 8:40:18 GMT -6
Sounds great, Victor: I'm certainly not advocating an encyclopedic treatment of the topic, but definitely agree that there's room for further guidance, advice, suggestions, and anecdotes Looking forward to the next part! |
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oldgeezer
Level 3 Conjurer
Original Blackmoor Participant
Posts: 70 
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Post by oldgeezer on Jul 14, 2008 11:38:06 GMT -6
After a bit of a hiatus, I am working on The Wilderness Architect, Part Four. So, how's the dissertation going? ;D |
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Post by badger2305 on Jul 14, 2008 17:00:00 GMT -6
After a bit of a hiatus, I am working on The Wilderness Architect, Part Four. So, how's the dissertation going? ;D Quite well. I do this stuff to maintain my sanity.  |
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Post by codeman123 on Jul 14, 2008 18:56:01 GMT -6
I really like the random approach for some reason i have really been on a random charts kick for all things in my campaign... it really inspires me to come up with some cool things..
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Post by calithena on Aug 18, 2008 4:04:12 GMT -6
Hi Victor!
We'll get those maps on the back cover of FO! issue 3. How is part 4 going?
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Post by grodog on May 29, 2009 23:35:32 GMT -6
Hey Victor, have you done anything more with the Wilderness Architect lately? |
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Post by calithena on May 30, 2009 6:23:37 GMT -6
I think we got all of Victor's stuff on this into FO! 2 and 3. We'd love more articles from Mr. Raymond in the future of course, on this or any other topic...
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Post by ragnorakk on May 30, 2009 17:51:56 GMT -6
Yeah - this is a really fantastic treatment and very thorough elucidation!
Glad it got brought back to read - can't wait to generate some maps
off this thread.
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Post by badger2305 on Jun 2, 2009 20:38:18 GMT -6
Thank you - there is some further material added to the articles in Fight On!, so be sure to check that out.
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Post by Zulgyan on Jun 3, 2009 5:19:42 GMT -6
Badger, you mentioned on your articles, that there was a series of articles about D&D space travel through some issues of White Dwarf.
Do you remember the specific issues?
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Post by badger2305 on Jul 5, 2009 20:05:06 GMT -6
They were by Marcus Rowland:
The DM's Guide to the Galaxy, in White Dwarf #26
The Dungeon at the End of the Universe, in White Dwarf #27
Excellent articles and well worth tracking down.
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Post by ragnorakk on Sept 1, 2009 16:39:25 GMT -6
Man! This is really a wonderful generation scheme! I finally got the chance to break out the colored pencils and sit down to roll dice and consult charts and I am really happy with the results! Generated a land area 325 mi. NS, 215 mi. EW and it is looking lovely! I've introduced only a bare minimum of non random input (I placed a few contiguous mountain hexes), it just wasn't needed! One thing I've observed about it is that you can 'guide' the results in different ways by adopting a couple of different methods. - use a center hex (like where a stronghold is located) as the basis for determining
the content of a realm (20 mile area). This produces somewhat smoother results. - Once a coastline is established, roll some dice (depending on the size of the land mass) to determine how far from the cost the first mountains occur (again - if you feel you need mountains somewhere semi-specific)
- The first point can be expanded out on the six directional lines to create a sort of initial terrain 'framework', and once enough of these are established and overlap, using the same sort of mechanic as is used for filling desert and open water can be applied to fill larger areas with less rolling
Spend a long time on it today and won't be able to finish til tomorrow, but man! I just think this is lovely! Thanks again! |
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Post by calithena on Sept 4, 2009 12:41:08 GMT -6
Badger -
Do you still check in here? I need to get in touch with you about FO! #7 ASAP.
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Post by coffee on Sept 4, 2009 14:47:25 GMT -6
I know he was going to move to Madison a while back. You might be able to contact him via his blog, The Sandbox of Doom (http://sandboxofdoom.blogspot.com/).
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Post by James Maliszewski on Sept 4, 2009 16:31:33 GMT -6
I just spoke to Victor today, actually. He's now pretty safely settled in Wisconsin, so I expect he has email access again.
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