AS&SH Questions

[Charon]

Hello

What an utterly fantastic game this is.

Long time role player (red box initiate and all that), but new to AS&SH. This game has reignited my love for role playing like no other game has done in a long long time (RuneQuest 6 notwithstanding).

I was considering increasing the bonuses to hit (Str) to a +1, +2, and +3. Likewise with Dexterity for the AC bonus adjustment (+1, +2, and +3). Similar with Charisma (turn undead adjustment), Constitution (poison saves) and Wisdom (Willpower adjustment). All on a 15-16 +1, 17 +2, 18 +3.

Reason being, I feel it makes attributes that little bit more relevant. Now there's a bigger difference between a 16, 17, and 18.

Can you see any problems with this, any rules it may effect (detrimentally) down the line?

Thanks

EDIT: Also, when can I buy the boxed set?

[Charon]

Anyone?

[kesher]

Hey there, and welcome to the boards!

I agree with you about the sheer awesome of AS&SH!

I can't see why, outside of ability creep, those changes would cause any real issues.

[Charon]

Thanks Kesher

[Ronin84]

Aug 17, 2012 11:19:26 GMT -6 Charon said:

Anyone?

I wouldn't change anything until I tried playing it RAW a few sessions...It really does start changing combat if you ask me and with all power creep how is this going to be used in conjunction with the monsters?

[Ghul]

Aug 16, 2012 11:32:44 GMT -6 Charon said:

Hello

What an utterly fantastic game this is.

Thank you! Much appreciated. I'm happy to hear you are enjoying it so far.

Long time role player (red box initiate and all that), but new to AS&SH. This game has reignited my love for role playing like no other game has done in a long long time (RuneQuest 6 notwithstanding).

That is great to hear! Thank you!

I was considering increasing the bonuses to hit (Str) to a +1, +2, and +3. Likewise with Dexterity for the AC bonus adjustment (+1, +2, and +3). Similar with Charisma (turn undead adjustment), Constitution (poison saves) and Wisdom (Willpower adjustment). All on a 15-16 +1, 17 +2, 18 +3.

Reason being, I feel it makes attributes that little bit more relevant. Now there's a bigger difference between a 16, 17, and 18.

Can you see any problems with this, any rules it may effect (detrimentally) down the line?

One of the design goals of this game has been a de-emphasis on character attributes, but what you suggest is a subtle shift that should cause little grief.

STR at a score of 18 already provides +2 "to hit" and +3 damage, and 18 DEX provides +3 "to hit" (missiles) and +2 AC. I am a little more concerned about the saving throw adjustments being bumped to match the attribute adjustments, but I don't think it's a deal breaker; more unfair to the monsters, if anything. Anyway, do what thou wilt!

Thanks

EDIT: Also, when can I buy the boxed set?

Should be soon. I want to get this next batch of pre-orders out the door, and then post the game up for general sales. Thank you for your enthusiasm and your interest! And sorry so late in my reply. I've been a bit swamped of late.

Cheers,
Jeff T.

[Ghul]

Aug 17, 2012 11:41:07 GMT -6 Ronin84 said:

Aug 17, 2012 11:19:26 GMT -6 Charon said:

Anyone?

I wouldn't change anything until I tried playing it RAW a few sessions...It really does start changing combat if you ask me and with all power creep how is this going to be used in conjunction with the monsters?

I generally do this for any game I play -- RPGs, board games, and otherwise. I always do RAW and after several sessions of play I might tweak something. You should see my house rules for RISK!

[Charon]

I'm going to do away with the saving throw adjustments, and just go with the Str and Dex adjustments.

And thanks for the reply/advice.

[Charon]

I printed out the character sheet from the pdf but it's too small for my eyes.

Can we expect a similar but larger one?

Thanks

[Charon]

Page 208 – Combat Phases
I haven't got a clue how the combat phases actually work during play.

Does a character perform every action over the two phases, does he choose one action or something else?

Then there's this "Melee may occur before, during, and after movement"

Then this "Alternatively, a melee combatant may make his attack(s) on phase oneand move ½ on phase two, if his opponent is slain or otherwise incapacitated"

I don't find the rules very clear here.

[Charon]

Page 216 – Grapple
Upon a successful attack roll, the target is allowed an avoidance saving throw to escape the hold.

Ok, an avoidance saving throw to get free.

If the saving throw fails by 5 or more, on the next round the grappler can choke or maim his enemy for 1d2-1 hp damage per round, plus strength modifier

If the avoidance roll fails, but not by 5 or more the target is just grappled?

A grappled victim can break free with a successful test of strength, or an extraordinary feat of strength if contesting an 18 strength grappler.

Are these tests of strength (ordinary and extraordinary) opposed by the grappler’s own tests of strength every round or does just the target roll?

Whether opposed or not, is the only way the grappler can inflict damage on the target, is if the target fails his Strength roll by 5 or more?

Finally, why are these rolls (of Strength) to escape different to the avoidance saving throw above?

[Ronin84]

Aug 19, 2012 13:37:50 GMT -6 Charon said:

Page 208 – Combat Phases
I haven't got a clue how the combat phases actually work during play.

Does a character perform every action over the two phases, does he choose one action or something else?

Then there's this "Melee may occur before, during, and after movement"

Then this "Alternatively, a melee combatant may make his attack(s) on phase oneand move ½ on phase two, if his opponent is slain or otherwise incapacitated"

I don't find the rules very clear here.

I can see where it starts to get confusing with all the first phase and second phase choices...

The way melee appears to work is this: Is my opponent less than a half move away from me, if so then I can half move and attack in phase one. IF he is more than a half move then I can only attack THAT target in phase 2.

NOW if he is engaged and no movement is needed he can attack in Phase 1 and then make a half move in phase 2 as long as that target is out of the combat if he is not and he continues his move then the opponent gets a swing at +2 as he move by.

I hope that helps and if you need an example minus all the he's then let me know...I can come up with something.

[kesher]

I think you've got the grappling rules right in the first instance of attempt to grapple/attempt to avoid. The avoidance throw is only applicable on your opponent's initial attempt. The strength roll is used after you've been successfully grappled, though as a GM I could be convinced to allow a character to avoid initial grappling with the use of strength.

I don't think the game really uses opposed rolls, does it? I'd say it's just the grapplee rolling, as it were.

[Charon]

Aug 19, 2012 16:44:02 GMT -6 kesher said:

I think you've got the grappling rules right in the first instance of attempt to grapple/attempt to avoid. The avoidance throw is only applicable on your opponent's initial attempt. The strength roll is used after you've been successfully grappled, though as a GM I could be convinced to allow a character to avoid initial grappling with the use of strength.

I don't think the game really uses opposed rolls, does it? I'd say it's just the grapplee rolling, as it were.

That's how I read things yes, but it would be nice to have it officially confirmed as such.

The combat phase actions are giving me the bigger headache right now though.

[Charon]

I was looking at the advanced combat options on page 217, and of the 21 of offer, only five of them are for offensive melee weapons. 8 of them are defensive in nature, and the other 8 are for missile type weapons. Also, one of the five melee offensive options can only be used in a phalanx formation. Melee weapons get a rough deal it seems.

How would you go about creating more melee offensive options? I'd only want about another 3 or 4.

Thanks

[Charon]

Aug 19, 2012 15:37:05 GMT -6 Ronin84 said:

Aug 19, 2012 13:37:50 GMT -6 Charon said:

Page 208 – Combat Phases
I haven't got a clue how the combat phases actually work during play.

Does a character perform every action over the two phases, does he choose one action or something else?

Then there's this "Melee may occur before, during, and after movement"

Then this "Alternatively, a melee combatant may make his attack(s) on phase oneand move ½ on phase two, if his opponent is slain or otherwise incapacitated"

I don't find the rules very clear here.

I can see where it starts to get confusing with all the first phase and second phase choices...

The way melee appears to work is this: Is my opponent less than a half move away from me, if so then I can half move and attack in phase one. IF he is more than a half move then I can only attack THAT target in phase 2.

NOW if he is engaged and no movement is needed he can attack in Phase 1 and then make a half move in phase 2 as long as that target is out of the combat if he is not and he continues his move then the opponent gets a swing at +2 as he move by.

I hope that helps and if you need an example minus all the he's then let me know...I can come up with something.

If that is the extent of the rulings concerning the combat phase actions, I think I'll be fine (thanks for the example). But again, it would be nice for the designer(s) to chip in and clarify/confirm what's what.

Thanks again.

[Ghul]

Aug 19, 2012 15:37:05 GMT -6 Ronin84 said:

Aug 19, 2012 13:37:50 GMT -6 Charon said:

Page 208 – Combat Phases
I haven't got a clue how the combat phases actually work during play.

Does a character perform every action over the two phases, does he choose one action or something else?

Then there's this "Melee may occur before, during, and after movement"

Then this "Alternatively, a melee combatant may make his attack(s) on phase oneand move ½ on phase two, if his opponent is slain or otherwise incapacitated"

I don't find the rules very clear here.

I can see where it starts to get confusing with all the first phase and second phase choices...

The way melee appears to work is this: Is my opponent less than a half move away from me, if so then I can half move and attack in phase one. IF he is more than a half move then I can only attack THAT target in phase 2.

NOW if he is engaged and no movement is needed he can attack in Phase 1 and then make a half move in phase 2 as long as that target is out of the combat if he is not and he continues his move then the opponent gets a swing at +2 as he move by.

I hope that helps and if you need an example minus all the he's then let me know...I can come up with something.

This is an excellent answer. Could not have answered it any better myself. The two phase round presents options for movement and spacing during the combat round, where phase 1 actions are most immediate, and phase 2 actions typically follow movement (or in the case of melee, extra movement).

One of the things we will be doing in the near future is a section on our web site's "resources" page that includes several examples of play. These will illustrate a variety of combat examples that show how the two-phase round can be utilized by the referee and player group.

[Ghul]

Aug 19, 2012 16:44:02 GMT -6 kesher said:

I think you've got the grappling rules right in the first instance of attempt to grapple/attempt to avoid. The avoidance throw is only applicable on your opponent's initial attempt. The strength roll is used after you've been successfully grappled, though as a GM I could be convinced to allow a character to avoid initial grappling with the use of strength.

Exactly so. The initial avoidance save is to "avoid" being grappled in the first place. If, however, one is grappled in a hold, one must try to break free with a test of strength, or (if applicable) an extraordinary test of strength.

Now, that being said, similar to kesher, based on what the player tells me what his character is attempting to do, I might allow the victim a test of dexterity to escape the hold.

I don't think the game really uses opposed rolls, does it? I'd say it's just the grapplee rolling, as it were.

There is no opposed roll here.

Thanks!

Cheers,
Jeff T.

[Charon]

Can I take more than one action during the two phases? The general impression seems to be no, but then we're told we can attack on phase one and move in phase two if the opponent is taken out.

There seems to be no hard and fast rules here.

Also:

"Melee may occur before, during, and after movement."

Ok so I can move and attack

Move attack move

Move and attack?

If so, when can I do the above, can I do it in either phase (though not in both phases in the same 'round')?

Then there's those with two attacks per round who can move half and attack on phase one and move half and attack on phase two. But this isn't mentioned in the combat phase table. And when do those who have 5/2 or 3/1 attacks per round, when can they attack, and what movement are they allowed?

I'm going cross eyed here.

[kesher]

Dood---at that point, just let the wizard throw a fireball...

[Charon]

Aug 20, 2012 14:06:59 GMT -6 kesher said:

Dood---at that point, just let the wizard throw a fireball...

Sounds good!

[Ghul]

Aug 20, 2012 8:45:06 GMT -6 Charon said:

Can I take more than one action during the two phases? The general impression seems to be no, but then we're told we can attack on phase one and move in phase two if the opponent is taken out.

There seems to be no hard and fast rules here.

Also:

"Melee may occur before, during, and after movement."

Ok so I can move and attack

Move attack move

Move and attack?

If so, when can I do the above, can I do it in either phase (though not in both phases in the same 'round')?

Movement is what largely impacts when in the round you go, either phase 1 or phase 2. So, you can move up to 1/2 your movement and take your full allotment of melee attacks on phase 1, or take your full movement and take your attacks on phase 2. Full movement is allowed when the combat form is melee, so even if you move half and attack, you may still move afterwards. Of course, if moving afterwards means disengaging from an enemy combatant, they have the right to take a free attack against you at a +2 "to hit" bonus. None of this implies that you can take extra actions on the second phase. For example, you could not move 1/2 and attack on phase 1, then cast a spell on phase 2. The rules do not allow for this.

Then there's those with two attacks per round who can move half and attack on phase one and move half and attack on phase two. But this isn't mentioned in the combat phase table. And when do those who have 5/2 or 3/1 attacks per round, when can they attack, and what movement are they allowed?

I'm going cross eyed here.

You are not forced to split up your attacks over the phases. You can take your full allotment of attacks when it is your turn to attack.

But let's say you are at 2/1 and you move half and take an attack on phase 1. Let's say the first swing fells your opponent: you can still continue to move and take a second attack on phase 2.

This is the type of example we will cover when we start posting examples of play at our web site.

Thanks for the questions!

Cheers,
Jeff T.

[Charon]

Please correct me if I am wrong about the following:

I understand a combatant can attack on phase one, and then move on phase two if he fells his opponent, and I understand those with multiple attacks can attack, move a second time, and attack again on phase two.

But aside from the above examples, are there any[/i] other actions I can take in phase one and then in phase two?

This is where the confusion lies for me; not being sure how many times I can perform an aciton in one combat round.

Thanks

[Ghul]

Aug 21, 2012 3:11:25 GMT -6 Charon said:

Please correct me if I am wrong about the following:

I understand a combatant can attack on phase one, and then move on phase two if he fells his opponent, and I understand those with multiple attacks can attack, move a second time, and attack again on phase two.

But aside from the above examples, are there any

[/i] other actions I can take in phase one and then in phase two?

This is where the confusion lies for me; not being sure how many times I can perform an aciton in one combat round.

Thanks[/quote]


It seems to me you want to conflate rounds with phases. To boil it down, almost everything happens on phase 1 unless movement dictates phase 2 actions. Phase two doesn't not me an extra round within the round; it's more like delaying your action till the end of the round because you took extra time to move.

You can only take one action per round regardless of the phase. If that one action happens to be multiple attacks, that is still your one action. You cannot do anything else. You cannot, for example, move 1/2 and take your attacks on phase 1, then drink a potion on phase 2. It doees not work that way. Phase 2 actions pretty much come into play because you chose to move and hence delay your shot fired, melee attack(s) taken, item used, or spell cast. All of this is elaborated on in the rules, in Vol. III if you look at the sections on melee, missiles, magic, and so forth.

[Charon]

Aug 21, 2012 9:38:50 GMT -6 Ghul said:

To boil it down, almost everything happens on phase 1 unless movement dictates phase 2 actions.

Yes, I fully understand this concept.

Aug 21, 2012 9:38:50 GMT -6 Ghul said:

You can only take one action per round regardless of the phase.

But the rules state if you kill your opponent (one action) on phase one, you can then move (one action) on phase two.

Page 212 "Alternatively, a melee combatant may make his attack(s) on phase one and move ½ on phase two, if his opponent is slain or otherwise incapacitated."

That's two actions.

Aug 21, 2012 9:38:50 GMT -6 Ghul said:

If that one action happens to be multiple attacks, that is still your one action. You cannot do anything else.

But a melee combatant allowed 2 attacks in the round, can move ½ and make an attack on phase one, then move ½ and make a second attack on phase two. That's at least two actions (or more if you consider movement) in one combat round.

Page 212 "Furthermore, if a melee combatant is allowed 2 attacks in the round, he may move ½ and make an attack on phase one, then move ½ and make a second attack on phase two. Again, this assumes the first opponent is slain or incapacitated."

Aug 21, 2012 9:38:50 GMT -6 Ghul said:

You cannot, for example, move 1/2 and take your attacks on phase 1, then drink a potion on phase 2. It doees not work that way.

Yes, I understand that part.

Aug 21, 2012 9:38:50 GMT -6 Ghul said:

Phase 2 actions pretty much come into play because you chose to move and hence delay your shot fired, melee attack(s) taken, item used, or spell cast.

Unless you have multiple attacks per combat round and slay your opponent in phase one.

Aug 21, 2012 9:38:50 GMT -6 Ghul said:

All of this is elaborated on in the rules, in Vol. III if you look at the sections on melee, missiles, magic, and so forth.

I have, sorry but it's not that clear to me for reasons I posted above.

Seems to me there's a bit of a gray area concerning what constitutes an action and what doesn't.

On one hand I'm told you only get one action per combat round, but the rules clearly seem to say otherwise.

[Charon]

I think this question will clear up my confusion.

I understand a combatant can attack on phase one, and then move ½ on phase two if he fells his opponent.

I understand those with multiple attacks can move ½ and attack on phase one, and then move ½ and make a second attack on phase two, again if they fell their opponent on phase one.

But aside from the above examples, are there any other multiple actions I can take in phase one and then in phase two?

I don't think there is but I was wondering about being able to make a ½ move on phase one and a ½ move on phase two.

EDIT: Just want to apologise for my questioning. I don't want to come across as being awkward. I really an enthused about this game, which is why I want to sort out this issue. I'm looking forward to many months of gaming with AS&SH. I think it's a fantastic rpg.

[Ghul]

Aug 21, 2012 10:21:07 GMT -6 Charon said:

But the rules state if you kill your opponent (one action) on phase one, you can then move (one action) on phase two.

Page 212 "Alternatively, a melee combatant may make his attack(s) on phase one and move ½ on phase two, if his opponent is slain or otherwise incapacitated."

That's two actions.

That's the thing -- it's not. Your attack routine at 2/1 is two attacks for the round. However! If you, as referee, feel that movement after an attack routine is not how you wish the game to play, you are free to ignore that, especially if you feel it overcomplicates things or is difficult to explain to young or inexperienced gamers. It's something you can work in later, if you so choose.

But a melee combatant allowed 2 attacks in the round, can move ½ and make an attack on phase one, then move ½ and make a second attack on phase two. That's at least two actions (or more if you consider movement) in one combat round.

Again, it's not. It all happens quickly in the course of the 10-second round, and it is all part of your character's action that round -- movement and attacks, no matter how they are split up. And what you should also consider is the abstraction that combat represents. Just because your character has a 2/1 attack routine, this does not mean that, in the theatre of the imagination of game play, that only two attacks were made. Why, one can swing a sword probably a dozen times in 10 seconds, but only two were allowed a chance of the die roll.

Seems to me there's a bit of a gray area concerning what constitutes an action and what doesn't.

I like to think of it as three basic things: melee, missiles, and magic (spells + items). Each of these may be impacted by movement; otherwise, straight initiative ought to cover the order of the combat's participants.

On one hand I'm told you only get one action per combat round, but the rules clearly seem to say otherwise.

Well, I hope I have cleared up any ambiguity for you -- that an attack routine (whether 1/1, 3/2, 2/1, etc.) is considered a single action, even if it is spread over the round due to movement.

[Ghul]

Aug 21, 2012 11:01:51 GMT -6 Charon said:

I think this question will clear up my confusion.

I understand a combatant can attack on phase one, and then move ½ on phase two if he fells his opponent.

I understand those with multiple attacks can move ½ and attack on phase one, and then move ½ and make a second attack on phase two, again if they fell their opponent on phase one.

But aside from the above examples, are there any other multiple actions I can take in phase one and then in phase two?

Melee is the only form of combat that allows for full movement in the course of the round. But again, I must stress for sake of clarity that I do not consider the split up melee attacks to be multiple actionsas far as game play goes. As a narrative of events, if one said, "Conan took four steps, buried his axe into the head of the Pict, then advanced six more steps and lobbed the head off another savage," we might look at it as "multiple actions", but for game play, the multi-attack routine is considered a single action, movement included.

I don't think there is but I was wondering about being able to make a ½ move on phase one and a ½ move on phase two.

EDIT: Just want to apologise for my questioning. I don't want to come across as being awkward. I really an enthused about this game, which is why I want to sort out this issue. I'm looking forward to many months of gaming with AS&SH. I think it's a fantastic rpg.

No worries at all! I'm happy to help, and excited that you would consider giving the game a try. So no need to apologize!

[mabon5127]

Aug 21, 2012 11:01:51 GMT -6 Charon said:

I think this question will clear up my confusion.

I understand a combatant can attack on phase one, and then move ½ on phase two if he fells his opponent.

I understand those with multiple attacks can move ½ and attack on phase one, and then move ½ and make a second attack on phase two, again if they fell their opponent on phase one.

But aside from the above examples, are there any other multiple actions I can take in phase one and then in phase two?

I don't think there is but I was wondering about being able to make a ½ move on phase one and a ½ move on phase two.

EDIT: Just want to apologise for my questioning. I don't want to come across as being awkward. I really an enthused about this game, which is why I want to sort out this issue. I'm looking forward to many months of gaming with AS&SH. I think it's a fantastic rpg.

I actually found that your questions and Jeff's answers helped to further my understanding! Thanks for asking.

Morgan

[Charon]

All's well that ends well then

Thanks all