Tweaking the Whitebox Fighting-men

[Il Male™]

I finally decided to run a straight by the (three-little-brown-)book(lets) dungeon based game. This is because my experience with this game has always been heavily influenced by the Swords & Wizardry approach, and although that was (and is) one of my favorite retro-clones, I always felt like I was missing something. You know, all the little bits that make the Whitebox edition so special: the seemingly boardgame-y skills, the monster's random attacks, the awesome monster reaction table; in short, to quote from Philotomy's OD&D Musings "Embrace the design assumptions, and you'll enjoy the game more."

Now, I'm off course making some tweaking here and there, but trying to stay close to the original as much as possible. For example, I designed a skill system that works on rolls of "5+" in 6, where bonus are given by race (as detailed in U&WA) and not by abilities, but armor penalty is taken into account (i.e. you cannot surprise in full plate). Thus, I was wondering about tweaking the Fighting-men To Hit matrix.

Assuming you're familiar with it, you know it looks quite odd: every three levels the fighting-men improves its THAC2 by 2 or 3 points for an overall bonus of +15 at 16th Level (referring to Delta's magic formula). Also, while Clerics and Magic-users improve their skills greatly upon advancing in the first three levels (i.e. new spells), the Fighting-men see little advancement other than improved HD. Thus, I'd like to grant FM a +1 bonus to hit for every other level of experience.

My question is: based on your own experience (as opposed to intuition or love for mathematical elegance), do you feel like this would be a little, positive enhancement or rather something that could spoil the game on the long (or even short) run?

EDIT: I fixed some syntactic mistakes

[Deleted]

How about a straight +1 "to hit" per level gain? This would be in place of the normal attack progression on the d20 attack matrices.

Another rule you may consider, either in lieu of the above or in addition to? Grant +1 hp per level gained to fighters. I also give this to dwarves and hobbits but not elves.

I've used the latter to good effect IMC. The former, on the other hand, isn't so much a change as an adjustment of progression. The fighter gains ability more often but in smaller increments.

Also, just so you know (and you may already): 1 chance in 5 on d6 = 87%.


eta: "on d6"

[Mushgnome]

I've played many 3rd edition games where the fighter's attack bonus is equal to their level. It is a fun and balanced way to play.

[Il Male™]

Jul 21, 2012 11:20:10 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

Also, just so you know (and you may already): 1 chance in 5 on d6 = 87%.

I don't get it - what are you referring to?

Thanks for reply anyway! A flat +1 per level is exactly what I was thinking, probably worth a try at the gaming table

[Deleted]

Jul 21, 2012 12:31:11 GMT -6 Il Male™ said:

I don't get it - what are you referring to?

This:

For example, I designed a skill system that works on rolls of "5+" in 6,

Thanks for reply anyway! A flat +1 per level is exactly what I was thinking, probably worth a try at the gaming table

Glad to be of some assistance. Let us know how it works out for you.

[Necropraxis]

Jul 21, 2012 9:55:14 GMT -6 Il Male™ said:

I designed a skill system that works on rolls of "5+" in 6

Jul 21, 2012 11:20:10 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

Also, just so you know (and you may already): 1 chance in 5 on d6 = 87%.

I believe Il Male™ meant 5 or higher on a d6, which is 33% percent. I'm not sure what you mean by 1 chance in 5 in a d6 either.

[Necropraxis]

Personally, I rather like the attack rank progression that is encoded in the alternate combat to-hit matrix. It means that other classes advance through the same ranks, just slower than fighters. Maybe give the fighters an extra +1 at first level, to distinguish them from the other classes?

I like the plateau progression because the math is less obvious than using base attack bonuses, which I think causes people to not focus on it as much. Also, getting to the second attack rank is a big achievement. And, it makes bonuses from magic weapons and stuff more special (because any bonuses are rare).

[Mushgnome]

Personally the thing I like about the original "tiered" progression is the notion that even a Veteran of many battles is just a Man. Then, there is a certain threshold where that Man becomes a Hero and gets a big bump in combat ability. (And then again at Superhero, etc.) While clunky from a game design point of view, it fits the literary influences very well.

[Necropraxis]

Jul 21, 2012 15:38:44 GMT -6 Mushgnome said:

Personally the thing I like about the original "tiered" progression is the notion that even a Veteran of many battles is just a Man. Then, there is a certain threshold where that Man becomes a Hero and gets a big bump in combat ability. (And then again at Superhero, etc.) While clunky from a game design point of view, it fits the literary influences very well.

Very well put. I also like that "hero" corresponds to the attack skill increase.

And to be honest, you will probably have just copied the relevant attack numbers and saving throws to your character sheet, so it's not that clunky. Even the referee only needs access to 3 tables during play: men attacking, monsters attacking, and saving throws.

[Deleted]

Untimately: LOL! You're right! I really didn't write what I was thinking very well. In my defense, I've been in a serious accident (I'll be out of work for at least a month) and I'm on a lot of pain meds. I meant to say ...


One has an 87% of rolling a result of 1-5 on a d6.


Sorry for the confusion.


ETA: And you're apparently correct and I misread Il Male's sentence. Pain meds, okay? ;D

[mgtremaine]

Jul 21, 2012 16:20:13 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

I've been in a serious accident (I'll be out of work for at least a month) and I'm on a lot of pain meds.

Not to thread jack but, d**n!, I'm sorry to hear that. Hope the pain reduces quickly and the recovery goes well. If you get any PT make sure you do all the things they tell you. Having survived a bad fall, free climbing when I was younger and stupider, I can tell you some injuries you need to stay aware of for life.



-Mike

[Il Male™]

Jul 21, 2012 15:34:34 GMT -6 Necropraxis said:

I like the plateau progression because the math is less obvious than using base attack bonuses, which I think causes people to not focus on it as much. Also, getting to the second attack rank is a big achievement. And, it makes bonuses from magic weapons and stuff more special (because any bonuses are rare).

Yeah, perhaps you're right - the reason I ask is I'm not sure if this house-ruling is effectively needed adjustment or barely too much concerning ahead of playing

As to the positive bonus, the point is I very often play with noobs and as much as I don't have problems looking on charts, sometimes the "to hit array" prove to be difficult to interpret for them. The Target 20 mechanic is only more elegant and retains the descending Armor Class, which is a concept that really screams D&D to me, as opposed to ascending Armor Class which, in editions prior to 3rd, just look misplaced (with so few bonus I mean).

@cameron: no reason to be worried, and thanks for taking the time to answer to my question even if recovering! I hope you'll stay well and get better soon

[Finarvyn]

Jul 22, 2012 0:30:52 GMT -6 Il Male™ said:

Yeah, perhaps you're right - the reason I ask is I'm not sure if this house-ruling is effectively needed adjustment or barely too much concerning ahead of playing

My take on this is that you house rule until you like it. I play OD&D a lot like the rulebooks state because it's the way I like the game, but I make some tweaks myself. Make the game what you want it to be.

For example, I like ascending AC rather than descending. Made this change decades ago, before the 3E dudes did it. (Their method is better; I kept having folks add 10 but it makes more sense to have zero armor be AC 10 and go up from there.)

AC = Type = AAC
9 = none = 10
8 = shield = 11
7 = leather = 12
6 = leather and shield = 13
5 = chain = 14
4 = chain and shield = 15
3 = plate = 16
2 = plate and shield = 17

Another rules tweak I like is essentially "white box with thieves" becasue I have some players who love to play thieves and they should get that chance. (I wish I'd written thieves into my S&W:WB rules. Just one more thing I was talked out of and regret about that rules set.)

As to the combat charts, I prefer using the "to hit bonus" rather than the table. So, by the book (and this caps levels the way the Judges Guild GM screen does):

Fighter:
1-3 (+0) 4-6 (+2) 7-9 (+5) 10-12 (+7) 13-15 (+9) 16+ (+12)
Cleric:
1-4 (+0) 5-8 (+2) 9-12 (+5) 13-16 (+7) 17+ (+9)
Thief/Magic-user:
1-5 (+0) 6-10 (+2) 11-15 (+5) 16+ (+7)

Anyway, someday I may write this stuff up. Whitebox the way I do it.

[Necropraxis]

Jul 22, 2012 4:57:21 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

someday I may write this stuff up. Whitebox the way I do it.

I would be very interested in reading such a document.

[Professor P]

I would also add that if you are using Fighting Capabilities, level 1 fighting-men are Man+1. This could be interpreted as Fighting-men having a +1 to their attack rolls against creatures of 1 HD or less (or even man-types of higher HD - this was discussed a while back, see here.)

[Deleted]

BROWN box.

Not white box.

BROWN box.

BROWN, BROWN, BROWN.

BROWN box.

Now git offa my lawn.