Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser

[Finarvyn]

Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser stories are considered to be one of the "classic" swords & sorcery series of all time. Clearly there is an influence on OD&D, since Gods, DemiGods & Heroes has a Nehwon section.

The style of the stories is dark fantasy, and it has been suggested that Leiber's style is in part a tribute to the works of Robert E Howard and Clark Ashton Smith.

I've been thinking about re-reading the series and I was thinking about the "best" order to read the stories. The two obvious choices that I could think of would be (1) order in the books, and (2) order they were written.

I've generated a couple of lists and thought I'd post them to see if any discussion arises.

[Finarvyn]

First, the list according to the books. Listed below are the number in the series, story title, and year of publication.

SWRODS & DEVILTRY
1 "Induction" 1970
2 The Snow Women 1970
3 "The Unholy Grail" 1962
4 Ill Met in Lankhmar 1970

SWORDS AGAINST DEATH
5 "The Circle Curse" 1970
6 "The Jewels in the Forest" ("Two Sought Adventure") 1939
7 "Thieves' House" 1943
8 "The Bleak Shore" 1940
9 "The Howling Tower" 1941
10 "The Sunken Land" 1942
11 "The Seven Black Priests" 1953
12 "Claws from the Night" ("Dark Vengeance") 1951
13 "The Price of Pain-Ease" 1970
14 "Bazaar of the Bizarre" 1963

SWORDS IN THE MIST
15 "The Cloud of Hate" 1963
16 "Lean Times in Lankhmar" 1959
17 "Their Mistress, the Sea" 1968
18 "When the Sea-King's Away" 1960
19 "The Wrong Branch" 1968
20 Adept's Gambit 1947

SWORDS AGAINST WIZARDRY
21 "In the Witch's Tent" 1968
22 "Stardock" 1965
23 "The Two Best Thieves in Lankhmar" 1968
24 The Lords of Quarmall 1964

THE SWORDS OF LANKHMAR
25 The Swords of Lankhmar (Scylla's Daughter) 1968

SWORDS AND ICE MAGIC
26 "The Sadness of the Executioner" 1973
27 "Beauty and the Beasts" 1974
28 "Trapped in the Shadowland" 1973
29 "The Bait" 1973
30 "Under the Thumbs of the Gods" 1975
31 "Trapped in the Sea of Stars" 1975
32 "The Frost Monstreme" 1976
33 Rime Isle 1977

THE KNIGHT AND KNAVE OF SWORDS
34 "Sea Magic" 1977
35 "The Mer She" 1983
36 The Curse of the Smalls and the Stars 1983
37 The Mouser Goes Below 1988


EDIT: Added the "traditional" book titles, e.g. "SWORDS AND..." to show where most collections break off.

[Finarvyn]

Next, the same list sorted by publication date (which I hope is similar to the order they were written)

20 Adept's Gambit 1947

6 "The Jewels in the Forest" ("Two Sought Adventure") 1939
8 "The Bleak Shore" 1940
9 "The Howling Tower" 1941
10 "The Sunken Land" 1942
7 "Thieves' House" 1943

12 "Claws from the Night" ("Dark Vengeance") 1951
11 "The Seven Black Priests" 1953
16 "Lean Times in Lankhmar" 1959
18 "When the Sea-King's Away" 1960
3 "The Unholy Grail" 1962
14 "Bazaar of the Bizarre" 1963
15 "The Cloud of Hate" 1963
24 The Lords of Quarmall 1964
22 "Stardock" 1965
17 "Their Mistress, the Sea" 1968
19 "The Wrong Branch" 1968
21 "In the Witch's Tent" 1968
23 "The Two Best Thieves in Lankhmar" 1968
25 The Swords of Lankhmar (Scylla's Daughter) 1968
1 "Induction" 1970
2 The Snow Women 1970
4 Ill Met in Lankhmar 1970
5 "The Circle Curse" 1970
13 "The Price of Pain-Ease" 1970
26 "The Sadness of the Executioner" 1973
28 "Trapped in the Shadowland" 1973
29 "The Bait" 1973
27 "Beauty and the Beasts" 1974
30 "Under the Thumbs of the Gods" 1975
31 "Trapped in the Sea of Stars" 1975
32 "The Frost Monstreme" 1976
33 Rime Isle 1977
34 "Sea Magic" 1977
35 "The Mer She" 1983
36 The Curse of the Smalls and the Stars 1983
37 The Mouser Goes Below 1988


EDIT: Moved "Adept's Gambit" to the top of the list; left a space where it had been for visual purposes.

[Finarvyn]

My thoughts on the lists:

1. Series starts in 1939, ends in 1988. Roughly fifty years in between the final story and the initial one.

2. Stories by decade: 6 in the 1940's*, 3 in the 1950's, 11 in the 1960's, 14 in the 1970's, 3 in the 1980's.

* I counted the 1939 story as part of the 1940's, since 1939 is so late in the '30's.

3. Interesting that Leiber left his characters for such a long span in between 1953 and 1959. The only other similar time frames without stories published is 1977-83 and 1983-88.

4. Around 1970 Leiber clearly decided to go back and write a background for his characters, as opposed to allowing each story to stand alone, as seen by the fact that stories #1, #2, #4, and #5 come right after #25. Robert E Howard wrote Conan with the idea that a reader could read the stories in pretty much any order without much confusion, and the F&tGM stories pre-1970 seem to have had a similar philosophy.

5. The early stories in the cycle (by publication date) tend to be my favorites, whereas the older stories are less interesting to me.

[Falconer]

Finarvyn— Once again you and I are on the exact same wavelength! I have been thinking about this lately, and, as usual, I definitely think publication order wins the day. I made the mistake of buying the British edition which collect the entire series into two omnibuses. So I started reading from the beginning. It was laborious and not very rewarding. From here on out I will only read stories in smaller collections if I can help it—it is rewarding to start and finish a book in a reasonable amount of time and only move on later to the next one, as opposed to a 1000+ monstrosity that never seems to end.

In 1957, Leiber published the first collection of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories, entitled Two Sought Adventure. This collects (almost) all the stories which had been written up until that point, including:

• The Jewels in the Forest (novelette 1939 Unknown, as “Two Sought Adventure”)
• Thieves’ House (novelette 1943 Unknown)
• The Bleak Shore (1940 Unknown)
• The Howling Tower (1941 Unknown)
• The Sunken Land (1942 Unknown)
• The Seven Black Priests (novelette 1953 Other Worlds)
• Claws from the Night (novelette 1951 Suspense as “Dark Vengeance”)

These stories (plus a few others) can currently all be found in the collection Swords Against Death, which is considered #2 in the series. I, personally, would read these in order published (plus the missing “Adept’s Gambit” published in 1947 in a separate collection) and consider 1953 the cutoff for the “essential” stories (as you noted, that was the first big gap).

If I were at all less nitpicky, I would probably just read Swords Against Death as-is (i.e. rather than start with collection #1 in the series).

[tavis]

I think the later stories are interesting to see the development of Leiber's style, personal outlook, and reactions to contemporary events, e.g. feminism in stories like "The Two Best Thieves in Lankhmar"and the conversation with Joanna Russ via the character of Alyx the Picklock and Russ's Alyx.

I'd also recommend some of Leiber's modern horror stories like "Smoke Ghost" - I think one reason that he was an influence on Gygax is that they both share a background in Chicago, and its urban landscape as expressed in these modern Leiber stories is useful to see how it informs both Lankhmar and Greyhawk City.

[Falconer]

This is interesting.

So, by all accounts, “Scylla’s Daughter” and “The Lords of Quarmall” are not to be missed (and are in fact the original two stories). The former can be found in the collection Barbarians and the latter in Swords Against Wizardry.

[amityvillemike]

I was introduced to Leiber's actual stories (as opposed to the Nehwon mythos from DDG) via the Gregg Press hardcovers of the "Swords" series, so I read them in chronological order rather than published order. That had a great impact on me and remains the way that I prefer to read them. Since Leiber himself did the connecting tales rather than a second party (such as what happened to Conan), I don't have an issue with the rearrangment. I can understand the desire to read them in published order.

However, remember that published order and written order are not synonymous, especially with Leiber. As Falconer points out, Lords of Quarmal was actually started by Fischer and finished by Fritz; where does it fit in date wise then?

Adept's Gambit was the first F&GM tale written by Leiber, which is why the action takes place on Earth rather than Nehwon, but it didn't get published until after Two Sought Adventure (or "Jewels in the Forest") was accepted.

As for the unproductive periods in his career, Leiber, like a great many talented individuals, struggled with alcoholism for much of his life, and I think those periods in which he did little writing might be reflective of the times when he was in the depths of the disease. I can't confirm that, but it seems likely.

[jasons]

I love that the Lords of Quarmal live in a megadungeon! I remember reading that Leiber left large swaths of Fischer's text unaltered. It's been years since I read the story, must read again, but I recall thinking how nakedly proto-Gygaxian the ideas in it felt. I also really enjoyed the handling of the gods and Death itself in Trapped in the Shadowland and Under the Thumbs of the Gods, both later stories.

[Finarvyn]

Found this tidbit about “Adept’s Gambit” and thought I’d share. I snipped out a few parts and only quoted what I found the most interesting….

“Adept's Gambit" is an oddball in the Fafhrd and Gray Mouser series; it was the first to be written but it wasn't published until 1947 when Arkham House released NIGHT's BLACK AGENTS, a collection of chillers from Leiber. (A very cool anthology by the way, later reprinted in part by Ballantine. "The Man Who Never Grew Young", "The Dreams of Anton Moreland", "Diary In the Snow"... all great horror stories, but "Adept's Gambit" was left out, maybe for space considerations.)

So "Adept's Gambit" is actually first? This seems to confirm AmityvilleMike's statement.

As I understand it, this first story had heavy usage of the "Cthulhu Mythos", until Lovecraft himself advised Leiber in a letter that it really would be better off standing on its own. Even so, the final version has many references to the Elder Gods and the odd concept that hearty laughter has great mystical power.

Neat to see the Cthulhu tie-in.

When collected in SWORDS IN THE MIST for the series of Ace paperbacks, a little framing vignette was added that showed our heroes taking the wrong turn while tramping through Bottomless Caves in search of Ningauble and emerging in our world (where Lankhmar seems like a faint dream).

Interesting that the Nehwon-to-Earth sequence was added later.

[Finarvyn]

Jun 14, 2010 12:36:33 GMT -6 amityvillemike said:

I was introduced to Leiber's actual stories (as opposed to the Nehwon mythos from DDG) via the Gregg Press hardcovers of the "Swords" series, so I read them in chronological order rather than published order.

Actually, this pretty much is the way I discovered them in the mid-1970's, with the (then five) six-book paperback set. I read them in the order given in the books, never questioning which order they were written.

I also read the Howard/DeCamp Conan 12-volume Conan books at roughly the same time and had no idea they weren't the "real" Conan stories. Actually, at the time I probably wouldn't have cared.

Now I think I'm a much more savvy reader and ponder both written order as well as author's arranged order. I don't see that either is "better", but it's interesting for me to see the "original" as well as the "complete", if that makes any sense. (I kind of like the "roll back the clock" game, where one only looks at the products out there as of a certain date. Fun for Star Trek, OD&D, and other older works. )

[Thorulfr]

Jun 14, 2010 11:06:15 GMT -6 tavis said:

I think the later stories are interesting to see the development of Leiber's style, personal outlook, and reactions to contemporary events, e.g. feminism in stories like "The Two Best Thieves in Lankhmar"and the conversation with Joanna Russ via the character of Alyx the Picklock and Russ's Alyx.

The story "Rime Isle" is also interesting in the Leiber became involved in Scandinavian paganism at some point in his later life.

[Finarvyn]

Jun 14, 2010 11:08:46 GMT -6 Falconer said:

“Scylla’s Daughter” and “The Lords of Quarmall” are not to be missed (and are in fact the original two stories).

I've been looking for a copy of Scylla's Daughter" for some time, becasue I'd like to read it in its original form instead of the later version found in my anthologies. I had long heard that The Swords of Lankhmar was an “expansion” of a short story called “Scylla’s Daughter”, but have been unable to find the original story.

Then I found a reference that was more specific:
It seems that chapters II-VI of The Swords of Lankhmar were originally published as the novella “Scylla's Daughter” in 1961, and are included under that title by Gardner Dozois in his anthology Modern Classics of Fantasy.

So, I guess Leiber took the existing story and simply added chapters before and after in order to create the full-length Swords of Lankhmar novel. For some reason I was always under the impression that “Scylla’s Daughter” had undergone a full re-write.

Can anyone confirm this?

[Falconer]

Nov 22, 2010 22:44:50 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I've been looking for a copy of Scylla's Daughter" for some time, becasue I'd like to read it in its original form instead of the later version found in my anthologies. I had long heard that The Swords of Lankhmar was an “expansion” of a short story called “Scylla’s Daughter”, but have been unable to find the original story.

Check it out:

Jun 14, 2010 11:08:46 GMT -6 Falconer said:

“Scylla’s Daughter” ... can be found in the collection Barbarians

It can be bought on Amazon for a penny (well, $4 or whatever after shipping). I already bought myself a copy and could probably answer some questions about it if you ask specifically (I don’t own The Swords of Lankhmar—or rather, I probably do, but I don’t care to dig it out of a box somewhere).

[jmccann]

Interesting idea to read these in chronological order of publication or writing. I have been reading them slowly sequentially over the past couple of years. Maybe after running through them all I'll start reading them in some chronological order.

[Finarvyn]

The problem I have is that I've read some of the stories so often that I feel like I know too much of what is going to happen next. Usually if I put a book aside for a while I can go back and still be "surprised" by what happens, but for some reason I remember these too well.

[kenmeister]

I've read the first 3 books so far; I'm taking a break before continuing the series. Picking one favorite from each book:
Book #1: Ill Met in Lankhmar, no contest
Book #2: Thieve's House, but there are a lot of good stories in this one
Book #3: When the Sea-King's Away

[jmccann]

Dec 1, 2010 21:09:33 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

The problem I have is that I've read some of the stories so often that I feel like I know too much of what is going to happen next. Usually if I put a book aside for a while I can go back and still be "surprised" by what happens, but for some reason I remember these too well.

In my case the last time I read them was in college which was let's see 5, 10.... Uh never mind. It was a long time ago! I did remember bits of the books, including some of the plot twists, but I have forgotten enough that remembering really did not detract from my enjoyment.

[Finarvyn]

I was making a list of Lankhmar articles in Dragon magazine for a post on DF and thought I'd share it here as well. Not as many as you'd think, considering the impact that Leiber seems to have had on both OD&D and TSR in general. Here's what I know of...

GENERAL BACKGROUND:
These are articles about the characters, as well as a couple of short fiction stories by Leiber. "Sea Magic" is a part of the seventh book (The Knight and Knave of Swords), I believe, and isn't a "lost story" at all.

• "Fafhrd & The Mouser Have Their Say" by Fritz Leiber issue #1 (p.4)
  
• “Sea Magic” fiction by Fritz Leiber, issue #11 (p.17)
  
• "The Childhood and Youth of the Grey Mouser" fiction, issue #18 (pgs. 28-29, 31)
  
• "Giants In the Earth: Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser" by Lawrence Schick and Tom Moldvay, issue #27 (p.29)
  
• "The Formative Years of Fafhrd and The Mouser" by Franklin C. MacKnight, issue #30 (p.16)
  
• "Fafhrd-Mouser Adventure - In Puzzle Form" by Fritz Leiber, issue #38 (p.44)

LANKHMAR BOARD GAME: (Franklin C. MacKnight)
These articles may only be interesting if you own the old TSR Lankhmar board game from 1976.

• "The Original Game and What It Became" issue #31 (p.32)
  
• "Converting the New Game Into the Old Lahkmar" issue #33 (p.12)
  
• "Converting to Lahkmar, In a Nutshell" issue #34 (p.32)
  
• "MacLankhmar: A Compromise Game" issue #36 (p.46)
  
• "Combat In the Compromise Game" issue #37 (p.31)

I suspect there are articles reviewing the "Adventures of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser" boxed set and the Lankhmar modules for 2E, but I don't know what they are offhand.

[pessimisthalfling]

I just began reading the Fafhrd & Gray Mouser stories yesterday for the very first time.
I was planning to read them in book order (starting with Swords Against Devilry). I agree with Falconer in that an Omnibus is a bit overwhelming, so I'll read the smaller compilations one at a time.
The Snow Women is certainly different than what I expected. The story has a bit of a dunsanian-fairy tale feel to it coupled with the cynicism (for a lack of a better word) that I only expected from "newer" fantasy books.
I'm hoping to finish it today.

[Morandir]

I picked up the first four books several years ago, and enjoyed them greatly. I've obtained 5, 6 and 7 within the last week, and I'm about halfway through 7 now. I've considered getting 8 (Swords Against the Shadowland) as well, even though it's not written by Leiber. According to what I've read though, Leiber chose the author to continue the stories, so that's a point in its favor. Does anyone have any experience with it?

[Finarvyn]

Apr 19, 2011 7:22:19 GMT -6 pessimisthalfling said:

The Snow Women is certainly different than what I expected. The story has a bit of a dunsanian-fairy tale feel to it coupled with the cynicism (for a lack of a better word) that I only expected from "newer" fantasy books.

Snow Women is one of my least favorite F&GM stories, and I don't think it is much like most of the others.

If you only read a few, start with the ones with the earliest publishing date. (One of the first posts in the thread has a list.)

[pessimisthalfling]

Will do Finarvyn!
I'll probably finish reading Swords Against Devilry before starting to read the others because I can't leave a book unread. Then I'll begin reading each in the order Leiber wrote them.

[Morandir]

I just went back and read this thread from the beginning - something I realized I hadn't done before, despite thinking that I had. I had no clue that Leiber wrote the stories out of chronological order! Or that Harry Fischer wrote a good chunk of Lords of Quarmall (which is one of my favorites).

I'm midway through The Knight and Knave of Swords, as I mentioned before; but someday I'll have to go back and read the stories in the order they were written.

Also Fin, Harry Fischer wrote a short story/article titled "The Childhood and Youth of the Grey Mouser" featured in Dragon #18 (pgs. 28-29, 31). I didn't see it on your list, but it's mentioned in the Wiki article for Fischer.

[Finarvyn]

Apr 20, 2011 21:33:04 GMT -6 Morandir said:

Also Fin, Harry Fischer wrote a short story/article titled "The Childhood and Youth of the Grey Mouser" featured in Dragon #18 (pgs. 28-29, 31). I didn't see it on your list, but it's mentioned in the Wiki article for Fischer.

Nice catch. I'm not sure how that missed my list, but I'll try to get it corrected!

Oh, and I got this in the mail today...

May, 1961 issue of Fantastic. Not only does it have the original publication of Leiber's "Scylla's Daughter" but it also has Robert E. Howard's "Garden of Fear."An added bonus! ;D

[Morandir]

Ooh, cool! Also, Karl Treuherz FTW! I loved that part of the story so much that I've added Karl as a random seagoing encounter (should the PCs ever go seafaring, that is). And a REH story that I've never heard of - but must find now - to boot. Truly a magnificent magazine you have there!

[norse]

It's a real shame they don't make weird fiction magazines like that any more.

I haven't yet read that Howard story. To Project Guthenberg!

[Deleted]

I just picked up a copy of Two Sought Adventure from e-bay and can't wait to read it. It has the following seven tales:

Jun 14, 2010 7:09:41 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

6 "The Jewels in the Forest" ("Two Sought Adventure") 1939
7 "Thieves' House" 1943
8 "The Bleak Shore" 1940
9 "The Howling Tower" 1941
10 "The Sunken Land" 1942
11 "The Seven Black Priests" 1953
12 "Claws from the Night" ("Dark Vengeance") 1951

I'd like to figure out a "correct" order to read the stories, assuming that I was a new reader in 1954 and had just bought "Leiber's newest book, Two Sought Adventure."

1. In general, I assume that the order of the stories in Two Sought Adventure would be correct, since that's the way they were organized in 1954.

2. I'm a little puzzled as to why they would order "Seven Black Priests" before "Claws from the Night", as they were published in the opposite order.

3. And these two aren't in the book, even though they are supposed to have been written first. Where would they "fit" into the series?

Jun 14, 2010 7:09:41 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

20 Adept's Gambit 1947
25 The Swords of Lankhmar (Scylla's Daughter) 1968

"Adept's Gambit" was written before 1954, so I can't figure out why it wasn't in the book. "Scylla's Daughter" was supposed to be one of the first two written, even though it wasn't published until 1961 (after the Two Sought Adventure tome). I assume that the 1968 date given above pertains to the "Swords of Lankhmar" version and not the original.

Any Leiber scholars out there who can help me out with a "proper" reading order?

[Deleted]

Maybe the "answer" would be to blend the two lists.
1. Start with the story order as presented in the newer books. Since Leiber ordered them this way, we assume that this is the "correct" order for them.
2. Take Falconer's basic premise of cutting off the series at 1953 or thereabouts. However, be sure to include the few stories which were written before but not published until after.
3. Didn't "Ill Met in Lankhmar" win an award? Plus it's the story of how they met. I'd say leave it in.

This gives an "essential" list that looks like this:

Jun 14, 2010 7:09:41 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

1 "Induction" 1970
4 Ill Met in Lankhmar 1970
6 "The Jewels in the Forest" ("Two Sought Adventure") 1939
7 "Thieves' House" 1943
8 "The Bleak Shore" 1940
9 "The Howling Tower" 1941
10 "The Sunken Land" 1942
11 "The Seven Black Priests" 1953
12 "Claws from the Night" ("Dark Vengeance") 1951
20 Adept's Gambit 1947
24 The Lords of Quarmall 1964
25 The Swords of Lankhmar (Scylla's Daughter) 1968

What do you think?

[Finarvyn]

Nice list, Keltset, but I can't imagine an essential Fafhrd & Gray Mouser story list without "Bazaar of the Bizarre," which is one of my all-time favorite stories.