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Post by geoffrey on Mar 9, 2010 19:20:18 GMT -6
When I consider the forms of D&D I'm familiar with (TSR A/D&D, the retro-clones, and C&C), I'm confronted by the fact that any of them can be played with a WIDE variety of styles:
over-the-top gonzo fantasy
grim-and-gritty
swords & sorcery
high fantasy
science-fantasy
etc.
Now some questions:
1. Can 4th Edition D&D be played (without changing the core rules) in a wide variety of styles? I'm mostly wondering if it can be played in a "Weird Tales" sort of way (i. e., a Lovecraft/Howard/Clark Ashton Smith feel).
2. Can 4E do megadungeons?
3. Can 4E dungeons be written in the One Page Dungeon Level style?
4. If I wanted to invent my own 4E monsters, can I do it with small stat blocks?
5. How hard is it to make NPCs, monsters, and adventurers for 4E? With TSR-era A/D&D, I require virtually no prep time at all. I can wing most everything. Can I do that with 4E, or would I be putting in some serious work and time to make NPCs, monsters, and adventures?
6. Are miniatures/markers and a battlemat really necessary in 4E combat? I've never enjoyed using minis and stuff. I prefer for it all to take place in the imagination.
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Post by Finarvyn on Mar 9, 2010 19:51:27 GMT -6
I'm not a 4E expert, but have read through the rules some. I think that it would be really hard to play a grim-n-gritty style because of the abundance of hit points. Horror style campaigns only work well, in my opinion, if there is some fear in the players that their characters might perish and this is best done with limited hit points, spells, and other resources. The 4E style seems to give more power to the characters and thus would probably not work well for a gritty style.
Anyone with more experience want to chime in here?
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Post by cyclopeatron on Mar 9, 2010 20:32:55 GMT -6
My opinions based on my miniscule experience PLAYING 4e (never as a DM): 1. Can 4th Edition D&D be played (without changing the core rules) in a wide variety of styles? I'm mostly wondering if it can be played in a "Weird Tales" sort of way (i. e., a Lovecraft/Howard/Clark Ashton Smith feel). Not very well, due to the reasons Fin mentioned. The players are basically superheroes. They can certainly die, but it will be at the hands of hordes of beasts or very powerful and aggressive enemies. 2. Can 4E do megadungeons? Sure, but combat takes so long that a megadungeon could take a while to get through. The game is designed more for tactical combat than exploration. 3. Can 4E dungeons be written in the One Page Dungeon Level style? Yes. It is my impression from observing con games that short combat-oriented adventures are actually the norm. 4. If I wanted to invent my own 4E monsters, can I do it with small stat blocks? Not small by OD&D standards... I think it's common for monster stats to be blocked out in a rectangle the size of a baseball card. 5. How hard is it to make NPCs, monsters, and adventurers for 4E? With TSR-era A/D&D, I require virtually no prep time at all. I can wing most everything. Can I do that with 4E, or would I be putting in some serious work and time to make NPCs, monsters, and adventures? I don't know exactly, but it looks complicated. 6. Are miniatures/markers and a battlemat really necessary in 4E combat? I've never enjoyed using minis and stuff. I prefer for it all to take place in the imagination. No... I played a whole 4e game once with no minis or maps - just heavy role-playing and some light combat. I think much of this answer will depend on player expectations. |
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Post by Morandir on Mar 9, 2010 22:01:15 GMT -6
The only issue with 4e and minis is that a lot of the powers are based on movement/position, and it can be difficult to keep track of where everyone is and where they're moving/being moved to without a battlemat. If you're not doing a lot of combat, or you keep the combats simple, then it's probably not a big deal.
Mor
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Post by tavis on Mar 9, 2010 22:48:44 GMT -6
1. Can 4th Edition D&D be played (without changing the core rules) in a wide variety of styles? I'm mostly wondering if it can be played in a "Weird Tales" sort of way (i. e., a Lovecraft/Howard/Clark Ashton Smith feel). IMO, 4E can be "reskinned" to have a different appearance very easily, arguably more so than any other edition. Because the way things work are quite abstract, it's easy to say that your "sleep" powers are summoning shambling horrors that daze enemies; the game elements refer to game concepts like dazed and thus float free of the world, whereas an old-school spell like sleep doesn't make sense as mechanics without thinking about it what sleep means in the world (e.g. we don't need to be told that it doesn't work on an iron golem). However, how much you are able to change the deeper feel depends in large part on player expectations. For example, the rules as written strongly suggest that players should always know what the game effects of conditions applied to them are. Nothing in the rules says you can't have a cursed sword that, when picked up, causes the PC to be able to attack some creatures but not others, with this not apparent to the player until they try. However, the more 4E experience your players have the more likely they are to experience this as "wrong". 2. Can 4E do megadungeons? The problems I identified are wandering monsters (combat takes a long time to resolve at the table), focus on XP from combat (easily houseruled for GP = XP), and aspects of the knowability mentioned above. You might check out George Strayton's blog, who has more experience trying to houserule 4E to do megadungeons than I. 3. Can 4E dungeons be written in the One Page Dungeon Level style? 4. If I wanted to invent my own 4E monsters, can I do it with small stat blocks? Yes, I think the essentials would look like: 4 orcs, level 6. AC 22, Fort 19, Ref 20, Will 18. Sword +6, 1d8+3. 5. How hard is it to make NPCs, monsters, and adventurers for 4E? With TSR-era A/D&D, I require virtually no prep time at all. I can wing most everything. Can I do that with 4E, or would I be putting in some serious work and time to make NPCs, monsters, and adventures? There are explicit guidelines about what essentials a monster or NPC of each level has (e.g. the numbers listed above). It's easy to take these basics and say "OK, this orc has 1 better reflex than normal, and 1 worse AC than an average 6th level creature." It's harder to come up with the unique special maneuvers each NPC has (it's not like OD&D where there are six spells any 1st or 2nd level magic-using type might be assumed to know) but if you're comfortable winging these in play that can be easy and fun. Making adventures are difficult IMO to the extent that you try to represent challenges like traps, exploration, etc. with skill challenges. I don't feel like I've ever gotten the hang of doing these on the fly and designing good ones is both difficult and time-consuming for me. Whether your players want to use skill rolls to solve complex problems and how comfortable you are adjucating this with or without the skill challenge framework makes a lot of difference. See this thread for some of the other things that 4E assumes you'll be doing which may be time-consuming. 6. Are miniatures/markers and a battlemat really necessary in 4E combat? I've never enjoyed using minis and stuff. I prefer for it all to take place in the imagination. I would say there's a strong expectation of minis: so much of the stuff the players are given authority over involves ranges, pushing and pulling X squares, etc. that I think players will feel justified in being like "why did I go to all the trouble of choosing a power that does grid-based stuff if there's no grid". Note, however, that this feeds into other issues like the wandering monster; using minis is going to strongly push towards big interesting balanced time-consuming set-piece encounters and away from wherever the players go that's what they fight, no big deal if it's boring rats because it'll be over soon. |
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Post by vladtolenkov on Mar 10, 2010 9:36:15 GMT -6
Monsters can be re-skinned relatively easily as well. Find a monster that has mechanically appropriate abilities and your Fire Beetle has become a Minion of Cthuga (or whatever).
I ran a few sessions of 4E when it came out, and I found prep to be a bit more intensive than the rules lite games I tend to prefer, but it wasn't a dealbreaker and some of the prep was actually fun (as it should be). It was more manageable than 3E (which is my least favorite edition). Losing the minis might be harder to do but you can make it work.
Mike Mearls had an interesting post on his blog where he suggested to build everything in OD&D no matter what edition you're using because you're more likely to do the crazy fun stuff and not let yourself be limited to what you think works best in a particular edition. 4E combat can be a bit of a grind but there are ways around that to.
My biggest problem is that I had only 2 players. The game seems optimized for 4-5 players. We made it work though. There are a few suggestions for how to deal with this in the DMG2.
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Post by tavis on Mar 10, 2010 10:04:45 GMT -6
Mike Mearls had an interesting post on his blog where he suggested to build everything in OD&D no matter what edition you're using because you're more likely to do the crazy fun stuff and not let yourself be limited to what you think works best in a particular edition. Doing that can help with the skill challenge problem I alluded to. If you already know how the trap can be disarmed using OD&D's tied-to-the-world approach, it's easy to adjucate what skills can be used to do so, what the consequences for failure are, etc. using 4E's abstracted approach. The worst skill challenges I've run have been the least concrete. |
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Post by vito on Mar 10, 2010 13:41:19 GMT -6
Frequent 4E player here. 1. Can 4th Edition D&D be played (without changing the core rules) in a wide variety of styles? I'm mostly wondering if it can be played in "Weird Tales" (i. e., a Lovecraft/Howard/Clark Ashton Smith feel). I'd think so. If you take out the Tolkienesque demihumans and limit players to 'martial' classes, you can get something that aproximates Howard's Hyberborean age pretty closely. Yes, but you have to try and get away from the "one encounter per room" model. Combat encounters in 4E should be large and spread out across many rooms. I don't see why not. Plan for two or three combat encounters, list each monster and trap that will be used in those combat encounters, add some terrain, then try and fit a noncombat encounter in someplace. You should be able to squeeze all that in on one page. Just look at the Kobold Hall dungeon in the DMG. That could easily crunch down to one page. It's the monster and trap statblocks that take up most of the space. How small are we talking? NPCs don't really need to have a lot of rules attached. You can go purely on DM fiat with those. Creating monsters from scratch can be a little time consuming. Reskinning however is pretty fast. Rather than go through the entire process of statting out a monster, you could simply take an existing monster that's close to what you want, change the name and cosmetic details, and do a few minor tweaks. I'm playing in a campaign right now for instance where we are fighting against 'Flea-men'. Those are basically just goblins with a different flavor. Creating adventures on the fly can be a little difficult, but it's certainly doable. Yes, but you don't need to go out and buy any official products for this purpose. A piece of graph paper will suffice for a battlemat, and any small objects you have lying around can be used for miniatures. |
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Post by bluskreem on Mar 10, 2010 13:52:07 GMT -6
1. Can 4th Edition D&D be played (without changing the core rules) in a wide variety of styles? I've done alot with 4th ed. I generally run it as a Sword and Sandals style game, although I have done supers, horror, and low fantasy with it. For weird tales I'd say keep the focus on Skill challenges, and have the slow reveal. As for combat, in my experience status effects and diseases are much more frightening than massive damage, although that might just be me. 2. Can 4E do megadungeons? I'm not a big mega dungeon fan, so I'm no expert but I would think it would be possible. The Skill challenges, traps, and terrain rules are all well suited for exploration style games. While Random encounters in 4th ed aren't recommended in the main rules I use them in all of my games. Resting in the midst of a dungeon should never be safe. 3. Can 4E dungeons be written in the One Page Dungeon Level style? No problem. Monster trap, and terrain stats may be a little more intensive than AD&D, but not so much more that it would preclude the one page dungeon format. 4. If I wanted to invent my own 4E monsters, can I do it with small stat blocks? I don't see why not. 5. How hard is it to make NPCs, monsters, and adventurers for 4E? NPCs are a breeze. Monsters can take more time simply because powers can be difficult to balance, but I'd still say it's easier than 3rd. 6. Are miniatures/markers and a battlemat really necessary in 4E combat? I'd say this is the first edition where maps and minis are necessary. A lot of powers in 4th involve moving allies and opponents, there is also a big emphasis on terrain and traps. It's possible to do with out minis, but I don't imagine it would be pretty. |
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Post by geoffrey on Mar 10, 2010 14:51:36 GMT -6
Thanks, all, for your help.  Vito, I was hoping to make one-page dungeon levels with 2 or 3 combat encounters in each level. From what you're saying, that's doable. That's why I want the stat blocks of my new monsters to be small: So they will fit within the one-page dungeon level. I saw a little 5-minute video about D&D Insider. From what I understand, it makes it MUCH easier to make PCs, NPCs, and new monsters. Is that indeed true? Is a subscription worth it? |
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Post by vito on Mar 10, 2010 15:02:23 GMT -6
I saw a little 5-minute video about D&D Insider (or something like that). From what I understand, it makes it MUCH easier to make PCs, NPCs, and new monsters. Is that indeed true? Is a subscription worth it? Oh yeah. Big time. You get the character builder, the monster builder, the encounter builder, dungeon magazine, dragon magazine, and the compendium which contains all published materials. Also, you don't have to pay a subscription to keep the programs or the pdfs on your computer, only to update. You can purchase a subscription for only one month, download everything, then cancel your subscription. *edit* Vito, I was hoping to make one-page dungeon levels with 2 or 3 combat encounters in each level. From what you're saying, that's doable. That's why I want the stat blocks of my new monsters to be small: So they will fit within the one-page dungeon level. Use lots of minions. They generally only have one or two powers each. You are going to want to have some variety though. You will probably want a couple of more complex monsters in there to break things up. Those should have about three or four powers a piece. You can reuse monsters of course. Kobold Hall does this quite a bit. If you go this route, you are going to want to play around with their positioning in each encounter. Make sure that each room has a unique layout with interesting features, and make sure that the monsters are able to use the terrain to their advantage. Example: Room AMonsters: 3 Goblin Archers 1 Pit Monster Terrain Features: Sludge Pit (difficult terrain, requires an athletics check to climb out) Narrow Catwalk (requires an acrobatics check to avoid falling off) Tactics: The goblin archers will stand on the opposite side of the sludge pit and fire arrows at the adventurers. The pit monster will attempt to knock adventures off the catwalk and grab them with its tentacles. Room BMonsters: 3 Goblin Archers 1 Pit Monster Terrain Features: Murderholes Demon Altar Treasure: Demon Skull Tactics: The goblins fire arrows through the murderholes at anyone who attempts to pass through the corridor into this room. At the end of the corridor there is a demon altar with a demon skull sitting on top. The pit monster will guard the altar. The evil energy of the altar will empower the pit monster. |
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Post by geoffrey on Mar 28, 2010 14:17:21 GMT -6
I saw a little 5-minute video about D&D Insider (or something like that). From what I understand, it makes it MUCH easier to make PCs, NPCs, and new monsters. Is that indeed true? Is a subscription worth it? Oh yeah. Big time. You get the character builder, the monster builder, the encounter builder, dungeon magazine, dragon magazine, and the compendium which contains all published materials. Also, you don't have to pay a subscription to keep the programs or the pdfs on your computer, only to update. You can purchase a subscription for only one month, download everything, then cancel your subscription. I'm going to do precisely that. I'll pay for one month, download it all, and then cancel. But before I do so, I'd like for it to be updated with the material from the Player's Handbook 3 (which was released on March 16, 2010). Does anyone know when this update will take place? |
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jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 341
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Post by jacar on Apr 19, 2010 17:13:55 GMT -6
1. Can 4th Edition D&D be played (without changing the core rules) in a wide variety of styles? I'm mostly wondering if it can be played in a "Weird Tales" sort of way (i. e., a Lovecraft/Howard/Clark Ashton Smith feel). The game is pretty well cemented in the style of the DnD world it portrays. That said, if it meets your expectations of those genres, then the answer is 'yes'.
2. Can 4E do megadungeons?
Combat is slow. At our best, we had a 1.5 hour combat with perhaps a dozen villains. It would take a long time but you could do it.
3. Can 4E dungeons be written in the One Page Dungeon Level style?
The game would excel at this style. The adventure in 4E seems to be more of a spread of linked scenarios with interuldes for roleplay. It is sort fo linear in it's approach. At least the canned stuff is. The 1 pagers would work well.
4. If I wanted to invent my own 4E monsters, can I do it with small stat blocks?
Not really unless you are recycling what is already there. If you sink your money into the several monster manuals, you could simply do this by reskinning a monster. (as mentioned before)
5. How hard is it to make NPCs, monsters, and adventurers for 4E? With TSR-era A/D&D, I require virtually no prep time at all. I can wing most everything. Can I do that with 4E, or would I be putting in some serious work and time to make NPCs, monsters, and adventures?
TSR tried to prefab everything so I think making adventures and so forth would be pretty easy.
6. Are miniatures/markers and a battlemat really necessary in 4E combat? I've never enjoyed using minis and stuff. I prefer for it all to take place in the imagination.
If you are using the tactical engine then yes. Most of the powers derive their abilities from the tactical situation...moving a target 1 space or placing an AOE spell and shaking up a few targets. If you stripped all that out, many of the spells would be kind of pointless. I have a good impression of the game as a battle game. Because of the detail in the combat rules, fighting was pretty fun. As a roleplaying game, there are better games out there. It is so detail oriented towards combat that the few roleplaying rules really get lost. John |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2010 16:21:30 GMT -6
SNIP Now some questions: 1. Can 4th Edition D&D be played (without changing the core rules) in a wide variety of styles? I'm mostly wondering if it can be played in a "Weird Tales" sort of way (i. e., a Lovecraft/Howard/Clark Ashton Smith feel). I am only going to answer the 1st, 4e works fine for weird tales if you restrict the game to martial classes only. The dynamic combat style feels very pulp to me and while some of the higher levels are a bit iffy, the game still works well. Also 4e's ritual magic system works great for "creepy" add in parts of Agnazar's Book of Rituals (its an after market thing) and limit races to weird (I like human, tiefling , revenanant and dhampire myself) and you have the makings of a great pulp action game. |
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Post by jeffb on Jun 17, 2010 17:57:01 GMT -6
If you check out the Rayvns (Al from Beyond the Black Gate) BREWTAl 4E rules you'll find it runs fine for grim & gritty.
Basically- knock monster Hps down by 25%-40%, and use exploding dice (a roll of max damage allows another roll).
You can reduce healing surges & exploding dice makes the need for more use of them a reality. You can tweak the "rest" periods as well.
I did pretty much all of this, along with replacing the assumed use of plentiful magic items with simple attack/damage bonuses at appropriate tiering/levels. I ran a very "moldvay/cook/marsh" BX type of game with 4E this way. Worked excellent until the group split up.
The game is very easy to tweak for how you want it to play.Rules-wise, as well as the "re-skinning" that often gets mentioned. Far more-so than the edition prior. You may want to wait for the new "essentials line" & basic set as you will be able to pick up a product that focuses on the classic races/classes.
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