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Post by warrioroffrobozz on May 25, 2012 21:16:31 GMT -6
After recently receiving a copy of the FFC I realized there is no possible way I would ever be able to talk my players through Blackmoor Castle. Maybe I'm just not a very good Referee, but all these angles are hurting my eyes, how could anyone describe this place to their players, let alone in a way they could efficiently map it out?  |
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monk
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 237
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Post by monk on May 25, 2012 21:53:31 GMT -6
I often have that problem with very complicated maps. I don't know how to get around it, really. Some of the best modules have maps that are very difficult to describe. I'll be interested to see what tips the pros have.
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on May 25, 2012 22:07:22 GMT -6
I often have that problem with very complicated maps. I don't know how to get around it, really. Some of the best modules have maps that are very difficult to describe. I'll be interested to see what tips the pros have. This is when I use a dry-erase marker, just sketching out the "visibility" (torches, lamps, infravision, etc.) I have a "blank" paizo 1" square mat, that I scribble on as needed. |
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Post by Finarvyn on May 26, 2012 7:39:26 GMT -6
I often don't worry about details enough for players to map things out, but focus on the key stuff they need in order to visualize their options (doorways to exit, etc.). I scribble a picture on a notepad if they get too confused.
Actually, I like to have things less than orderly. I figure a party isn't going to spend hours surveying each room anyway, so why should I provide them with exact dimensions?
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Post by thorswulf on May 26, 2012 8:53:12 GMT -6
If memory serves, Greg Svensons group didn't map it out the first time, and got horribly lost. Maybe that is what is supposed to happen?
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Post by aldarron on May 26, 2012 13:05:55 GMT -6
If memory serves, Greg Svensons group didn't map it out the first time, and got horribly lost. Maybe that is what is supposed to happen? Yep the map is part of the challenge. I use terms like dogleg and angles slightly/sharply, triangular and the like a lot. For parts that are too confusing I sketch it - but only as much as the characters can actually see. I don't find it very difficult and the players maps should be far from perfect anyway - it's not like they are surveying the place. |
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Post by havard on May 27, 2012 4:26:32 GMT -6
For diagonal corridors, simply indicate where the corridor begins and ends. For oddly shaped rooms, I tend to give them the description of a rectangular big enough to cover the actual room and then tell them how it differs from such a room.
-Havard
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2012 6:46:25 GMT -6
After recently receiving a copy of the FFC I realized there is no possible way I would ever be able to talk my players through Blackmoor Castle. Maybe I'm just not a very good Referee, but all these angles are hurting my eyes, how could anyone describe this place to their players, let alone in a way they could efficiently map it out? Effectively mapping it out is not the point. Let me rephrase that. Effectively mapping it out is the anti-point. "A passage angles off, oh, about 45 degrees, you're not sure. How do you measure it?" "Passage east. Ten feet, twenty feet, starts to curve north. Thirty feet, forty feet, it's curved about one point, fifty feet, sixty feet, about two points...." The entire point was that it should be difficult to map. OD&D was primarily a game of exploration and mapping because that's what you spent the vast majority of your time doing. |
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Post by warrioroffrobozz on May 27, 2012 16:11:02 GMT -6
After recently receiving a copy of the FFC I realized there is no possible way I would ever be able to talk my players through Blackmoor Castle. Maybe I'm just not a very good Referee, but all these angles are hurting my eyes, how could anyone describe this place to their players, let alone in a way they could efficiently map it out? Effectively mapping it out is not the point. Let me rephrase that. Effectively mapping it out is the anti-point. "A passage angles off, oh, about 45 degrees, you're not sure. How do you measure it?" "Passage east. Ten feet, twenty feet, starts to curve north. Thirty feet, forty feet, it's curved about one point, fifty feet, sixty feet, about two points...." The entire point was that it should be difficult to map. OD&D was primarily a game of exploration and mapping because that's what you spent the vast majority of your time doing. I understand this. But no matter how much the players enjoy mapping getting lost in confusingly angled rooms will get frustrating unless the DM has some sort of method of effectively describing them. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2012 11:18:00 GMT -6
Hmm. I don't seem to be making myself clear.
The assumption was that the maps were primitive, crude affairs done by pre-industrial people using no tools other than parchment and pen. The maps were not supposed to be perfect, and neither Dave nor Gary gave anything more than general descriptions.
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Post by robertsconley on May 28, 2012 22:06:13 GMT -6
After recently receiving a copy of the FFC I realized there is no possible way I would ever be able to talk my players through Blackmoor Castle. Maybe I'm just not a very good Referee, but all these angles are hurting my eyes, how could anyone describe this place to their players, let alone in a way they could efficiently map it out? Rotate the map 45 degrees and try that way. |
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Post by grodog on May 30, 2012 21:08:44 GMT -6
Hmm. I don't seem to be making myself clear. The assumption was that the maps were primitive, crude affairs done by pre-industrial people using no tools other than parchment and pen. The maps were not supposed to be perfect, and neither Dave nor Gary gave anything more than general descriptions. True, Michael, but "general descriptions" doesn't help a DM much who wants to describe a complex environment, even generally. I think that this lack of training for DMs on "how to describe a map" is part of why mapping is so unpopular among players* in general. * Other reasons being that: 2) there's not much info given to players on how or why** to map, or the types of maps you can create and when to use which kind of map (exact maps, approximate maps, flow chart maps, trailing maps, description-only maps, etc.) 3) most published module maps were relatively simple compared to maps from 1977 and earlier ** other than the ubiquitous "so you don't get lost" or "so you can find your way back out" but if DMs don't get players lost and/or draw maps for the players, then these hazards lose a lot of their bite |
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Post by tavis on Jun 1, 2012 22:03:13 GMT -6
I also use the wipe-erase map to show players a little area of what they can see that would be hard to describe otherwise, and if they want to use that to make a larger map then more power to them. Some descriptions of experiences with Castle Blackmoor are here, and reflect the process of training myself in what maps are good for. |
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Post by grodog on Jun 2, 2012 19:07:16 GMT -6
I also use the wipe-erase map to show players a little area of what they can see that would be hard to describe otherwise, and if they want to use that to make a larger map then more power to them. Some descriptions of experiences with Castle Blackmoor are here, and reflect the process of training myself in what maps are good for. Good stuff, Tavis: definitely a great example of "so you can find your way back out"  |
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Post by havard on Jun 9, 2012 2:47:09 GMT -6
After recently receiving a copy of the FFC I realized there is no possible way I would ever be able to talk my players through Blackmoor Castle. Maybe I'm just not a very good Referee, but all these angles are hurting my eyes, how could anyone describe this place to their players, let alone in a way they could efficiently map it out? Rotate the map 45 degrees and try that way. Pretty good advice  -Havard |
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Post by keith418 on Jun 9, 2012 9:58:48 GMT -6
here, and reflect the process of training myself in what maps are good for.[/quote] That was awesome!
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Post by scottyg on Jun 13, 2012 10:52:24 GMT -6
This came up recently at a game I was DMing where the players weren't used to doing their own mapping. One of the players was convinced that the players' map should be an accurate reproduction of the DMs map. I had to convince them that the map just had to be a functional tool to help them navigate. My in-play maps look more like spider webs, lines connecting different points, with circles or squares thrown in than something you'd find in a published product.
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monk
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 237
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Post by monk on Jun 13, 2012 12:48:50 GMT -6
I'd love to see examples of players' maps like the one you describe, Scotty. Mapping is a great player skill that is hard to describe/teach in a rulebook. New players that learn from a book, rather than by joining an experienced group and learning from the grognards, may take quite some time to understand.
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Post by grodog on Jun 18, 2012 21:06:05 GMT -6
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Post by havard on Jun 21, 2012 8:30:21 GMT -6
Nice maps Allan! You guys dont have graph paper?  -Havard |
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monk
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 237
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Post by monk on Jun 21, 2012 13:46:59 GMT -6
Here are two player maps, from unrelated games... Thanks for posting those, Allan. I'll go check out that thread at KNK. I think I played in that session with Trent...Minicon? |
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Post by grodog on Jun 21, 2012 20:27:38 GMT -6
Nice maps Allan! You guys dont have graph paper? LOL. Well, with Rob's description style for the ERK upper works, a descriptive trail/"map" was more than sufficient to insure we weren't wandering into areas we'd already explored. And, given that, I just kept using the same paper for the rest of the dungeons once we descended into them Here are two player maps, from unrelated games... Thanks for posting those, Allan. I'll go check out that thread at KNK. I think I played in that session with Trent...Minicon? Trent's map was actually from a NTX RPG Con 2 years ago (#2) IIRC, and was from a different set of levels than the one I ran at the SoCal Minicon in July last year. |
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Post by gsvenson on Jun 29, 2012 15:02:23 GMT -6
I only tried to map Blackmoor dungeon once. After that I did it all from memory and did just fine. The only hitch was when my character was so hurt that he passed out. The rest of the party had to drag me out and keep waking me up to ask which way to go...
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