Book of War Mass Combat + OD&D = My Holy Grail?

[chicagowiz]

So I finally bought a copy of Delta's Book of War game - after reading about it on his blog over the past year or so, and even contributing to some of the discussions, I was excited to finally have it. I had high hopes that it would solve my problem of having a mass combat system that would be true to (O/B/A)D&D style of approaching things and also allow me to have a platform/approach to move my characters back and forth between a mass combat game and the RPG.

Well, his take on mass combat is one slick approach and I've come to like Daniel's take on things OD&D, but I didn't quite get the mechanics or get an exact approach on incorporating PCs of all levels - only 10th level and above types ("Heroes" and "Wizards"). So almost there is good enough, because now I have something that is relatively faithful to the D&D approach and that means it's tinker-material.

So... after some cogitating, I think I've come up with some core principals and basics. This is a rough draft - subject to discussion and consideration - I'm hoping Daniel will join in at some point. Let me know what you think?

Core Rules "deltas"


Scale
* One or more PCs may be part of a figure. A figure may have up to 10 PCs. The PC must be equipped equivalent to the unit's AH and weapon type (missle, melee). PCs that wish to join a cavalry unit must be mounted on similar/compatible mounts.


Movement
* The movement rate of a mixed figure is based on the slowest member of that unit (eg. a unit of elves with a couple of PCs in plate will move at 6")


Combat

* If 5+ PCs in figure, then figure's AH is based on PC's Armor Class. If PCs have mixed AC, take the "average" of the types.

* If the figure that the PC is embedded in is destroyed, the PC is subject to the rules of death per the campaign they are in.

Hit Dice for the figure are based on number of PCs embedded in the figure.

1st - 2nd level characters
* No bonuses to HD, no matter how many PCs are in a figure.

3rd level characters
* For every 5 PC of 3rd level, raise the HD of the figure by 1.

4th - 5th level characters
* For every 3 PCs of these levels, raise the HD of the figure by 1. (eg. 1 4th and 2 5th, raise HD by 1. 3 4th and 5 5th, raise HD by 2.)

6th - 7th level characters
* For every 2 PCs of these levels, raise the HD of the figure by 1.

8th - 9th level characters
* For every PC of these levels, raise the HD of the figure by 1.

NOTE that the +1 bonus to attack rolls for every 3HD of the figure is in effect.


Basic Rules "deltas"


Unit Selection

Cost for PC Fighting Men type
* See chart on Page 6 - Multiple the base cost of the unit by the HD. (eg. 3 4th level Fighting Men PCs are joining a Medium Infantry figure. This will raise that figure's HD to 2 and the cost from 5 to 10.)

Cost for PC Magic User types
* Still working on this.

Cost for PC Cleric types
* Still working on this


Thoughts:

Increasing a figure's HD really makes a difference to the figure, for attacks and for morale checks. The "3" rule really does play out in my spreadsheets where I calculated the # of HD equivalents for figure makeups. I probably could get more precise with the # of PCs to HD increases, but I like the simplicity of this approach.

I'm still working on how to incorporate the spells of PCs. I think I may take an approach of grouping spells:

* A PC can only cast 1 spell per turn. They can cast the number of spells that they have memorized for the combat.

* If the player who is casting does not have initiative for the game, and their unit was hit in the opponent's attack phase, they may not cast that round.

* A PC may cast an offensive/attack spell to add a +1 bonus to the attack roll of the figure they are in. Bonuses are not cumulative, multiple PCs may not cast multiple spells to gain a huge bonus. The duration of the spell is 1 turn.

* If the majority of the figure is composed of spell casters (mages/clerics), they may all cast an offensive/attack spell as a missile attack for that figure. The ROF is 1 and the range is the shortest of all spells cast. Attacks are normal for the entire range distance. The rest of missile rules (indirect, etc.) apply.

* A PC may cast a defensive/protection spell to add a +1 bonus the AH of the figure they are in. Bonuses are not cumulative. The duration of the spell is 1 turn.

* XP - well, I've always used the 1HD = 100XP for all my games, OD&D, AD&D and BD&D. So here, for each figure that the PC's figure kills, they get 1000XP per HD of the figure eliminated (10 men * 1 HD * 100XP = 1000).

(And all of the stuff between my thoughts/commentary is designated "Open Content" and all that jazz...)

[chicagowiz]

I should note that the 1,000XP per HD would go into the XP pot to be divided up by eligible/surviving PCs at the end of the day. In reality, this is why someone would risk their PC in a mass combat - get huge amounts of XP and the possibility of loot at the end of the day. Big risk though... one bad dice roll and you're dead.

[jmccann]

Apr 13, 2012 20:07:42 GMT -6 chicagowiz said:

So I finally bought a copy of Delta's Book of War game - after reading about it on his blog over the past year or so, and even contributing to some of the discussions, I was excited to finally have it. I had high hopes that it would solve my problem of having a mass combat system that would be true to (O/B/A)D&D style of approaching things and also allow me to have a platform/approach to move my characters back and forth between a mass combat game and the RPG.

If I recall, you were tinkering with HOTT.
Does this mean you have abandoned HOTT for this sort of thing? Or does Book of War have some similarity to HOTT?

[chicagowiz]

Apr 14, 2012 21:57:10 GMT -6 jmccann said:

If I recall, you were tinkering with HOTT.
Does this mean you have abandoned HOTT for this sort of thing? Or does Book of War have some similarity to HOTT?

I've abandoned HOTT for this specific purpose. I enjoy DBA/HOTT and will play them as well as play Chainmail and Battlesystem, but I have high hopes that BoW will be the game I use for my mass-combats that are part of my tabletop D&D campaign.

"So why not Chainmail? It's easy enough, once you grok the rules. D&D came from Chainmail." I still wrestle with that, to be honest. It's that part "once you grok the rules" - I think Chainmail is a fun game. I'm hoping (and judging by the simple rules, I think it's a fair theory) that BoW is easier for an inexperienced person to jump into.

I don't expect all of my players to play in the mass combat - this offering will be part of my campaign but optional to play in.

To answer your question about if BoW has similarity to HoTT, it basically does the same thing as HoTT. It does differ in that BoW is a bit simpler: base sizes don't differ by unit, it's pretty standard 3/4" square for all non-mounted, 1x2" for all mounted; there aren't "autokill" or effect options for different units based on the attack roll; morale in BoW is similar to the concept of morale in Chainmail, not of "fleeing" in HoTT (to me, fleeing in HoTT is a combat reaction/movement, whereas morale is a state of mind of the figure/unit in Chainmail/D&D/BoW and I like that. I use morale in my D&D combats quite a bit)

If anything else, BoW is worth the cost to Lulu, and if you have one of those discount codes, all the better. I got this book for far less than a D&D module and it will affect my campaign/game a lot more.

[waysoftheearth]

Has anyone been in contact with Dan recently? I emailed him a few times about BoW via his blog, but never got a reply

[chicagowiz]

@ways - I know he gets very busy, and he has been posting to his blog.

[jmccann]

Well, for $5 for the PDF I'll check it out.

[chicagowiz]

JM - very interested to see what other people think and how they'd use BoW to have a seamless mass-combat/tabletop RPG experience.

[chicagowiz]

Cleric PCs

I know clerics are verboten in Daniel's OD&D game, but I do include them in mine. I am sticking to the general rule from above regarding spell casters and offensive/defensive spells, but I wanted to address healing and turning undead.

Healing is simple. To be able to heal enough of a wounded, dying group of 10 men who were just hit in a figure, you would need 5 or more Cure * Wounds spells. That would mean 9th level, or a 3rd level and 6th level, or 3 3rd level - you see what I'm getting at. So, in order to heal a figure of 1 hit for a turn, you need enough clerics/levels in the figure to be >= 9, and you have to be at least 3rd level to be counted. Using that healing deducts from the # of spells your cleric has available. Healing occurs after melee and before morale is diced. If a figure has been marked as removed, a cleric may reverse this, but the figure may not perform any actions the following turn unless they're part of a unit that has lost morale and are forced to flee.

Turning - not so simple. But here's my idea: If a figure is within 1" of a unit (45deg to l/r applies) or in melee with an undead figure, and that figure contains a cleric PC, the figure may make a turn undead check as their spell cast.

To determine if an undead unit is turned, the player dices against a base roll of 4. The roll needed is modified by comparing the HD of the undead against the HD/level of the cleric*.
For each HD diff in favor of cleric*, subtract 1. If roll needed is 1, automatic turn. If roll needed is 0, figure destroyed.
For each HD diff in favor of undead*, add 1. If roll need is >6, undead cannot be turned.

Roll 1d6, if => needed roll, turn is successful.

Successful turn means that the undead unit will need to make a morale check, even if they lose no figures through combat. Any figures that are turned/destroyed count towards the R/L of that unit.

(* If more than 1 cleric in figure, use highest level cleric to determine difference.)

The cost of adding a mage to a figure - add 8 * lvl of mage to the figure's base cost. A mage doesn't have to have the same arms/armor as the unit he/she is in. If mages comprise the majority of the figure's makeup, then the figure will now have the AH/weapons of the mages embedded.

The cost of adding a cleric to a figure - add 10 * lvl of cleric to the figure's base cost. A cleric can keep a unit from dying, possibly... so yes, adding 90 to the cost of a unit that can come back from the dead makes a lot of sense to me. This means that a 200 point game could become pretty sparse, but I see these rules as enacting battles in my campaign. I'm going to be going by what characters are available and the numbers that are dictated by my campaign - so a balanced 200 point per side battle is unlikely! I would probably end up using the points to ensure that the PCs weren't outnumbered by too many monsters.

So... thoughts?

[chicagowiz]

Man, oh man... scrap the above. It gave me a headache reading it, way too complicated. So far, my ideas for "how to incorporate the PCs into mass combat" approach is to make the party into one figure. I came around to agreeing with Delta, go figure, that one single person isn't going to make that much of a difference unless they are at Hero-level.

Now an entire party as a figure... that's a different story. That's the angle I'm currently working from.

[scalydemon]

I like this system: hillcantons.blogspot.com/2013/05/by-this-axe-fantasy-battle-rules.html

Not sure if you have already checked it out though, or if it is an exact fit for what you seek. Good luck

[chicagowiz]

scalydemon - No offense to the wonderful writing by Chris K, but I'm pretty satisfied with what I'm getting from Book of War. I'm waiting to hear back from him on some points before I start posting my supplement to BoW. Thanks for the link, always nice to see what else is going on.

[derv]

I'd be interested in hearing some play reports chicagowiz. I'm curious about BOW's approach, though I havn't purchased a copy of the rules. I'd like to know more about them.

Your OP makes it seem like you could embed any PC with a body of other troops and some how get an average for the over all strength of the figure- say a 6th level Myrmidon with 9 other 1st level Veterans. How does this work?

Do all the characters have to be of the same type when you embed them? Magic-user with other MU's and Fighters with other fighters or can they be mixed?

[chicagowiz]

Dec 15, 2014 18:00:14 GMT -6 derv said:

I'd be interested in hearing some play reports chicagowiz. I'm curious about BOW's approach, though I havn't purchased a copy of the rules. I'd like to know more about them.

Your OP makes it seem like you could embed any PC with a body of other troops and some how get an average for the over all strength of the figure- say a 6th level Myrmidon with 9 other 1st level Veterans. How does this work?

Do all the characters have to be of the same type when you embed them? Magic-user with other MU's and Fighters with other fighters or can they be mixed?

I'd be interested too! The plan is at some point in the next couple of months to just have a simulation and see how it goes.

Delta has posted a lot about his mechanics and how things work: deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2011/09/book-of-war-core-rules.html , deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2011/10/book-of-war-core-rules-justification.html , deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2011/10/book-of-war-core-rules-justification_05.html , deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2011/10/book-of-war-rules-justification-part-3.html

The OP is junk, IMO. Too fiddly. What I do is make the PCs create a PC Party figure. That figure can then be placed within a unit. I'll let the game referee/players decide if there has to be some specific unit the PCs are to be with.

With BoW, I abstract a lot of the PCs abilities into the simple attack. Until a PC gets to Name level/10th level, it's very difficult for them to really go solo. Delta's justification of that was pretty sound, IMO: deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2011/11/book-of-war-heroes.html To answer your question about HD/hits - since the PC Party figure has to be 10 participants (I allow Men at Arms to fill out the rest if PC group < 10), then I take the total HD and divide by 10, rounding down. That's your HD/hits. "You need a total of 20+ HD to get 2 hits. The minimum level/party size needed to have > 1 hit is 6 third level PCs (lus 4 typical Men-at-Arms or 4 fourth level PCs plus 6 typical Men-at-Arms."

They don't have to be the same type, no.

I do give some guidance on spell casting, but that is a whole big can of worms and I'm still not convinced it's a good idea. Playtesting will help.

As soon as I hear back from Delta that I can post the supplement for comments, I will.

[robertsconley]

1st edition Battlesystem for any classic D&D edition. Hell even for 5th edition.