What other stuff is worth having

[ffilz]

From the poll on what sources do we have, I thought it might be worth starting a thread for asking about the value of various other bits (probably mostly third party). I'd like to see responses be real responses, especially negative ones (no "Oh, that sucks!"). If a product really has no use, or doesn't fit, go ahead and say so, but make sure you make it clear why you feel it doesn't fit. On the flip side, if you think something is worthwhile, give us some examples of why you think it's worthwhile.

With that said, here's an initial list of things I wonder about:

Chainmail (PDF from RPGNow) - I'm beginning to think more and more I want this, as much to understand OD&D better even if I don't use it.

Swords & Spells (PDF from RPGNow)

D&D Rules Cyclopedia (perhaps not really old school, I do own BECM), either PDF or actual book.

Dungeon Builder's Guidebook (AD&D 2e, curious about it's geomorphs and advice)

Arduin Grimoire (vols 4-9)

All the Worlds Monsters (PDFs from RPGNow)

Frank

[foster1941]

ffilz said:

Chainmail (PDF from RPGNow) - I'm beginning to think more and more I want this, as much to understand OD&D better even if I don't use it.

You absolutely want this, for the reason you stated. Even if you never play it as a game (I never have) it's a piece of history -- the roots of D&D.

Swords & Spells (PDF from RPGNow)

I already addressed this a bit in another thread. The entire thing is pretty much a big book of charts -- in S&S combat isn't resolved by dice rolls, but rather by statistical comparisons on charts -- HD/level and damage compared against AC. The other rules (movement, morale, etc.) are pretty much a rehash of Chainmail with the historical info removed and the fantasy stuff expanded and integrated into the main rules. Except just to say you have it there's no real compelling reason to get this. Even if I were to run D&D minis battles I think I'd rather use Chainmail+fantasy supplement and fudge the stuff that's not covered there than use this. Oh yeah, there's a chart listing the range/duration/area of effect of every spell from vol. I + supps. I & III which might be convenient to have.

D&D Rules Cyclopedia (perhaps not really old school, I do own BECM), either PDF or actual book.

This is convenient because it packs a ton of info into a single book, rather than 4 boxed sets + GAZ1. However, I have no real use for it because I don't like most of the stuff from the Companion & Master sets and GAZ1 (the General Skills system) and wouldn't want to use it anyway -- if I were going to play a Classic D&D game I think I'd just stick with the Basic & Expert sets (either Moldvay/Cook/Marsh or Mentzer). Also, if the fans at DF are to be believed, it's got a ton of errata. And the interior art is extremely bland. By the time this book was released the Classic D&D line was already dying of neglect; I don't think TSR put much care into this release, and it shows. I'm glad I have it because it's cool to have the complete game in a single book, but I don't particularly recommend it beyond that.

Dungeon Builder's Guidebook (AD&D 2e, curious about it's geomorphs and advice)

Don't have this, but the fact that it's an AD&D 2E product means I can pretty reliably predict that it's got a lot of fluff, filler, and restatements of the obvious and surprisingly little useful content and advice.

Arduin Grimoire (vols 4-9)

Don't have these but my impression is that Arduin grew further and further from D&D as it went on, so if you're looking to these as D&D supplements rather than a whole separate game I'd assume they're not as useful as the first 3.

All the Worlds Monsters (PDFs from RPGNow)

Just bought these myself. As actual collections of monsters for use in games they're pretty mediocre -- the descriptions are minimal, the layout is primitive in the extreme (looks like it was done on a typewriter), and most of the monsters are either too lame or too bizarre for actual use -- but as an artifact of 1970s D&D/rpg fan-culture it's absolutely fantastic and a must-have if that's something you're interested in (I am). As a bonus, vol. II contains "The Perrin Conventions," Steve Perrin's set of house rules for OD&D combat, that are sort of a missing-link between D&D and what would eventually become RuneQuest.

[Finarvyn]

Chainmail is great, just because you can see how the game evolved.

Swords & Spells just sits on my shelf. I like using D&D for combat better than S&S.

The Rules Cyclopedia is nice because it's all in one book (I often say that if I could only keep one D&D book and had to sell the rest, it would be the RC) but remember that it's based on BECM D&D rather than brown book OD&D, which means that it blends race and class together, is designed to go to level 36, and has some other oddities that mean it doesn't match quite with the earliest rules. Having said that, it's a great book!

I'm not a huge Arduin fan.

I thought that the Dungeon Builder's Guidebook was worthless. The geomorphs are okay but too specific (temple, pyramid, etc) instead of generic so you can't use it as a "traditional" dungeon. The ideas they have about dungeon creation aren't that special either, and if you read early issues of SR and Dragon they have a lot more useful advice on how to plan a dungeon. I'd say pass on it.

Just my two cents.

[ffilz]

Thanks, I think I'll pass on Swords and Spells, the Dungeon Builder's Guidebook, and the later Arduin books. Chainmail sounds like a definite, and All the Worlds Monsters is probably a neat buy.

Frank

[calithena]

Arduin Grimoire 4 is a really great supplement, even if it's moved away from the D&D framework of the original 3. The last five have good bits in them but aren't as essential.

I think that the most useful OD&D supplements are:

- Judges Guild, Ready Ref Sheets
- The AD&D DMG (for random encounters) and MM (for the critters that aren't in M&T)
- Midkemia Press' Cities (or AH Runequest Cities) and Gamelords' The Free City of Haven and Shadows over the Labyrinth - great city random encounters
- Greyhawk (if you like thieves)
- The first three Arduin Grimoires (some good content, lots of great attitude)
- If you don't roll your own, canned maps and adventures from any era

[foster1941]

calithena said:

- Midkemia Press' Cities (or AH Runequest Cities)

Oh absolutely! This is one of my all-time favorite game supplements (I've had the RQ version for years, and only recently picked up the original generic (OD&D-compatible) version and it's even better). I'll take 64pp of this book over 1200pp of Yggsburgh any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[ffilz]

Can you sumarize the material in Arduin Grimoire IV you find useful?

I have the Ready Ref Sheets, but have not made much use of them. But then I don't think I got them until I had already moved to AD&D.

I have all of the city products mentioned (plus CSIO, CSWE, and Tarantis). However, while I've always adored these detailed city products (if you put all the fantasy city products I have in one bookcase, I'm sure they would take at least two shelves), I've rarely found them to actually provide for interesting play. Most of the problem is that they aren't really a good place to use the combat focus of the game much, and they demand a lot of social interraction, which the rules of D&D have never made very satisfying.

Even if the material in Arduin Grimoires I-III is not used, they are such a concentration of the stuff that made the early hobby fun. All sorts of random charts, weird monsters, new character classes, new treasures. Lots of stuff that might imbalance your game. Somehow we maneuvered through all of this type of stuff from all sources and had fun.

Frank

[calithena]

ffilz said:

Can you sumarize the material in Arduin Grimoire IV you find useful?

Nothing _useful_ in the way the other things I posted about are useful to me, the way I run. Just a lot of cool flavor, well-presented. Some really good insanely powerful artifacts in there, some good Arduin information. Higher concentration of interesting material per read in that one than in V-IX (though there are good nuggets in all of them).

[murquhart72]

In addition to my TSR stuff, I wouldn't mind having Arduin stuff (I have the first 3 volumes) and Judges Guild stuff, especially City State of the Invincible Overlord, Caverns of Thracia and Dark Tower!

[grodog]

ffilz said:

From the poll on what sources do we have, I thought it might be worth starting a thread for asking about the value of various other bits (probably mostly third party). I'd like to see responses be real responses, especially negative ones (no "Oh, that sucks!"). If a product really has no use, or doesn't fit, go ahead and say so, but make sure you make it clear why you feel it doesn't fit. On the flip side, if you think something is worthwhile, give us some examples of why you think it's worthwhile.

Of all of the various oddities and 3rd party materials that I own, the ones that I return to over and over for various games are:

• Thieves World (Chaosium box set): a great city setting, excellent inspiration for Greyhawk city when combined with TSR's Lankhmar City of Adventure
  
• Midkemia Cities (and the Midkemia books in general): cities done right
  
• Gamelords' Haven (more good city stuff!---I like good city supplements since they were so few and far between...); I like the GL Thieves Guild system stuff too, but never played it or owned it BITD, so it's something that I like/appreciate now, but hasn't seen any use in my games yet
  
• Beastmaker Mountain (Role Aids: a solid, fun adventure!)
  
• the Erol Otus FAE publications (Booty & the Beasts, Necromican, Treasure Cards, Geomorphs: the books are very imaginative, the geomorphs have stairs and sloping passages, and the treasure cards allow you to customize an item with an EO illo for your players!)
  
• dungeon geomorphs in just about any form---I can't resist them (unless they suck, of course)
  
• Starstone by Paul Vernon - one of the best mini-campaign settings/regional campaign settings ever published, bar none!
  

[ffilz]

I have Thieve's World, Lankhmar, Cities (plus Carse, Tulan, Jonril, etc. I think I have the whole Midkemia Press line), Haven (sadly Vol III was never published, all the other Thieve's Guild stuff including the boxed set). I don't have any of the others you listed (well, except for the TSR geomorphs sets 1-3).

I have a ton of cities. Sadly, I've never managed to do much with cities. For some reason, they just don't seem to work for my play style.

I've run several sessions of Thieve's Guild over the years. It's a nice system, but to run a real extended campaign it would take a lot of work to add in other bits of the system. At one time, I reverse engineered some of the other classes from the NPC descriptions provided in all the modules.

Of course we have to absolutely mention the Judges Guild material. Many of the modules are so-so, but the campaign stuff (Wilderlands and cities [City State of the Invincible Overlord, City State of the World Emperor, and Tarantis]) is all pretty good. The First Fantasy Campaign is a great treatise on the early days of D&D, plus the map makes for a nice modest sized wilderness campaign. Dark Tower and Tegel Manor are gems. Modron is pretty neat (and has some decent underwater rules if I remember).

Frank

[grodog]

ffilz said:

Haven (sadly Vol III was never published, all the other Thieve's Guild stuff including the boxed set).

Tadashi would still like to publish Intrigue on the North Bank one day.

[tgamemaster1975]

Although published in 1982, the Judges Guild Item titled "Field Guide to Encounters Vol 1 & 2" is easily convertible to OD&D. It is quite useful in creating NPCs.

Vol 1 is 110 pages and contains:
Creating a Character
Poison Resistance
Occupations
Character Monster Supplement Introduction
Introduction to Intelligent Monster Supplement
Racial Distributions Chart
Intelligent Monsters
Rites of godhood
Creating a god
Appendix A Mutations
Mutation Descriptions
Appendix B Cross-Breeding Probabilities

Vol 2 is 94 pages and contains:
Assigning E.P.
Monsters
Psionics

[Falconer]

You can still get a copy of Cities:

www.midkemia.com/Products.html

I definitely recommend it. Regards.