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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 24, 2008 20:16:10 GMT -6
I'm trying to organize Blackmoor into various eras, since "Blackmoor" has been inserted into so many campaign worlds. Here's a start... I. Twin Cities Blackmoor (? - 1976) This would be Chainmail and pre-OD&D days from the Midwest Military Simulation Association (Minneapolis-St. Paul) and St. Thomas College, probably including most of the material in the FFC as well as the original version of the Valley of the Ancients. Probably this ectends as far as OD&D Supplement II. II. Judges Guild Blackmoor (1976 - 1980) This would be the FFC stuck onto the Wilderlands campaign along with the Wilderlands version of the Valley of the Ancients. My understanding is that Dave adjusted his map to fit along with the existing JG Wilderlands map. III. World of Greyhawk Blackmoor (1980-1985) The WoG folio and boxed set have BM placed therein, although no real development occurs as part of the Greyhawk campaign. IV. TSR Blackmoor (1986-87) This would be the era where TSR did the DA 1-4 series of modules. Dave had some input in the first couple, minimal (if any) input in the last couple. A DA5 module was planned but never created. The "Known World" of Mystara had BM placed therein (apparently by folks other than Dave Arneson) to attempt to tie the two worlds together. The GAZ modules began in 1987. The two issues of Different Worlds magazine were done about the same time as era IV but not specific to any version of Blackmoor and with a combination of rules. V. BlackMoor reimagined (2004-2009) This represents the 3E BM campaign published by Zeitgeist Games, the MMRPG and the brief foray into 4E BM. Anything I've left out, or does anyone see things differently?
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Post by Falconer on Jan 24, 2008 23:54:57 GMT -6
I figure there are only four publications worth looking at for actual Dave Arneson content as far as Blackmoor is concerned:
1. THE FIRST FANTASY CAMPAIGN (Original D&D) - Some material modified/reprinted as DA1 Adventures in Blackmoor (Mentzer Basic D&D) - Some material modified/reprinted as Dave Arneson’s Blackmoor (d20 3.5e) - Some material modified/reprinted as The Player’s Guide to Blackmoor (d20 3.5e) - Some material modified/reprinted as The Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor (d20 3.5e) - Some material modified/reprinted as Dave Arneson's Blackmoor: The First Campaign (D&D 4e) - Some material modified/reprinted as DA5 City of Blackmoor (theoretical product never published)
2. BLACKMOOR (Original D&D) - Some material modified/reprinted as DA2 Temple of the Frog (Mentzer Basic D&D) - Some material modified/reprinted as Temple of the Frog (d20 3.5e)
3. GARBAGE PITS OF DESPAIR (Mentzer Basic D&D/Advanced D&D)
4. DA3 CITY OF THE GODS (Mentzer Basic D&D) - Some material modified/reprinted as City of the Gods (d20 3.5e)
There was also “Facts About Blackmoor” published in The Domesday Book magazine/newsletter of The Castle & Crusade Society (the original one), but it seems to be extremely rare and obscure and probably most of it was republished in FFC.
The following have minimal to no actual Arneson content as far as I know (I would be glad to be corrected):
- DA4 Duchy of Ten (Mentzer Basic D&D) - The Redwood Scar (d20 3.5e) - The Wizard’s Cabal (d20 3.5e) - Clock and Steam (d20 3.5e) - Riders of Hak (d20 3.5e)
Regards.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 25, 2008 15:32:20 GMT -6
The following have minimal to no actual Arneson content as far as I know (I would be glad to be corrected): - DA4 Duchy of Ten (Mentzer Basic D&D) - The Redwood Scar (d20 3.5e) - The Wizard’s Cabal (d20 3.5e) - Clock and Steam (d20 3.5e) - Riders of Hak (d20 3.5e) Yeah, I never really know how to classify some of this stuff, particularly the new Zeitgeist products. Dave is an active supporter of their site and I get the sense that he's still directing traffic, but clearly other people are trying to fill in the gaps. That certainly makes it less than "canon" in my book.
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Post by gsvenson on Jan 25, 2008 15:35:20 GMT -6
I agree with Finarvyn's view of the eras for world of Blackmoor. However, I have only participated in eras I and V. I own the four DA modules (I picked them up on eBay recently), but have not played them as published.
I also agree with Falconer's assessment of Dave Arneson's involvement in the published materials about Blackmoor. Of course, I could be wrong, too, because I am sure that Dave was behind the basic concepts presented in The Wizard's Cabal, Clock and Steam and Riders of Hak, but, I do not know if he was involved in writing the actual books or not.
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Post by havard on Jun 6, 2008 7:51:12 GMT -6
Great writeup Fin! I am wondering if there might not be more Greyhawk Blackmoor material out there though, after 1985? For instance, is there references to Blackmoor in some of the WotC Greyhawk material? Also, WotC published a "Return to the Temple of the Frog" on their website as a free download. I think that was last year. Worth mentioning? In the section of actual products, City of the Gods has also been published by ZGG recently. The extent of Dave's involvement with the ZGG material is unknown, but my impression is that he at least approves each product. Maybe you can shed some light on this Dave? Havard
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Post by coffee on Jun 6, 2008 10:32:56 GMT -6
I don't remember the titles, having had no interest in 3e stuff at the time, but last year at Worldwide D&D Game Day, Dave was at The Source, my friendly (not so) local game store. He was sitting at a table full of new Blackmoor books, which I'd guess were the same ones you guys are talking about. So it looks to me as if he's involved.
Word is he's going to be here again this year (which is tomorrow). Last year he signed my copies of Blackmoor and Dungeonmaster's Index; this year I have FFC for him to sign.
Anybody have any questions they want me to ask him?
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 6, 2008 11:40:10 GMT -6
You ask great questions, Havard. Not to put words into your mouth but I get the impression from your website that you are more "all things Blackmoor" in thinking, which is fine but my general thinking is that Dave's Blackmoor is the "real" thing and in general other products that happen to use the name aren't as interesting to me. Not to suggest that other Blackmoor stuff isn't important, but I just wanted to explain why it wasn't on my list. I am wondering if there might not be more Greyhawk Blackmoor material out there though, after 1985? For instance, is there references to Blackmoor in some of the WotC Greyhawk material? My understanding is that the insertion of Blackmoor into other TSR worlds (Greyhawk, Mystera) was more of a means to tie together product lines rather than a genuine extension of the original campaign. I know that Dave himself made changes to the Blackmoor map so that it would fit onto Judges' Guild's Wilderlands setting, but as far as I know he wasn't associated with the process of stapling it onto Greyhawk. Also, WotC published a "Return to the Temple of the Frog" on their website as a free download. I think that was last year. Worth mentioning? This was a tough one for me as well, since as best as I can tell Dave had nothing to do with the project but it is tied into one of the classic Blackmoor modules of all time.
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Post by havard on Jun 6, 2008 12:01:55 GMT -6
Anybody have any questions they want me to ask him? Great offer! Give me a few to think about it and I am sure I will come up with some questions Havard
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Post by havard on Jun 6, 2008 12:18:49 GMT -6
You ask great questions, Havard. Not to put words into your mouth but I get the impression from your website that you are more "all things Blackmoor" in thinking, which is fine but my general thinking is that Dave's Blackmoor is the "real" thing and in general other products that happen to use the name aren't as interesting to me. Not to suggest that other Blackmoor stuff isn't important, but I just wanted to explain why it wasn't on my list. You are right. I am interested in anything Blackmoor. I don't mind discussing more narrow approaches though, I just wasn't sure exactly what you were looking for in this thread. This is probably correct. On the other hand, I seem to have read something about the days of the old Castles & Crusades society that all their campaigns took place in different parts of the same world. I also remember Greg talking about how Svenny & Co would travel from Blackmoor to Greyhawk so they could use their characters in the occasional game run by Gary. Ofcourse, this rather loose understanding of "the same world" is not the same as everything taking place in Greyhawk. The argument I could make for including it would be that it rehashes so much of Dave's work with very little new added to it. I can see how you'd not want to include it though (I see it has been included now actually). I am not trying to be difficult here, I just find it interesting to look at this from different perspectives. Havard
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 6, 2008 12:41:05 GMT -6
I can see how you'd not want to include it though (I see it has been included now actually). I am not trying to be difficult here, I just find it interesting to look at this from different perspectives. Oh, you're not being difficult. We're just approaching things from a different perspective, that's all. I'm not at all certain that my more narrow approach is the "best" one, and the fact that I keep buying Zeitgeist products shows that I'm not a "all Dave or nothing" kind of guy. From a "complete Blackmoor" standpoint, it would be good to assemble a list of everything Blackmoor, perhaps with a note as to which products were endorsed by Dave, written by Dave, or simply added on to Blackmoor by others.
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Post by havard on Jun 6, 2008 14:23:01 GMT -6
Oh, you're not being difficult. We're just approaching things from a different perspective, that's all. I'm not at all certain that my more narrow approach is the "best" one, and the fact that I keep buying Zeitgeist products shows that I'm not a "all Dave or nothing" kind of guy. Indeed. I actually think exploring different perspectives has merit on its own, which adds to my enjoyment of reading these threads. That is a pretty good idea Havard
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Post by Falconer on Dec 19, 2008 1:09:13 GMT -6
Updated my post (#2 above) slightly.
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blackmoor
Level 4 Theurgist
The First Dungeonmaster
Posts: 115
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Post by blackmoor on Dec 19, 2008 20:45:37 GMT -6
Woof. Well my list starts with Blackmoor, First Fantasy Campaign The DA series and ZEIGEIST GAMES BLACKMOOR along with the rest of the series. Then there were articles in DRAGON, DIFFRENT WORLDS, and PEGASUS MAGAZINES, As well as others. All subject to changes and additions.
Dave Arneson "Dark Lord of Game Design"
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Post by havard on May 21, 2009 13:20:55 GMT -6
Woof. Well my list starts with Blackmoor, First Fantasy Campaign The DA series and ZEIGEIST GAMES BLACKMOOR along with the rest of the series. Then there were articles in DRAGON, DIFFRENT WORLDS, AND PEGASSUS MAGAZINES, As well as others. All subject to changes and additions. Does anyone know which issues of Pegasus magazine were linked to Blackmoor? BTW, looking at the Eras of Publication in the OP, would 4E Blackmoor be considered yet a new era, or is that simply part of Era V? Havard
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Post by havard on Feb 7, 2010 12:52:50 GMT -6
V. BlackMoor reimagined (2004-present) This represents the 3E BM campaign currently being published by Zeitgeist Games, along with the MMRPG and other current products. Anything I've left out, or does anyone see things differently? Fin, you should update this post to reflect that the Last Era is over. Havard
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 7, 2010 21:44:50 GMT -6
A good point. I made some alterations to my OP.
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