Acquisition of spells to magic-users

[Deleted]

I bet this is covered somewhere on here, but I can't seem to turn it up, so I'll give it a shot: I've been playing the game in a variety of versions (OD&D, Holmes, AD&D), since 1980 or so, and I know how I handle the acquisition of spells for magic-users in OD&D, but I'm curious which methods others prefer, since, to me anyway, the rules were a bit vague about the process:

1.) The spell book for a brand new, 1st level magic-user has ALL of the spells listed in the 1st level listings, but the magic-user must select the single spell to take with them on dungeon crawl. Should they get back to their book, they could select another spell for next time.

2.) The brand new 1st level magic-user must select a spell to "write in his book" upon creation. This is the only spell he or she has until they raise in level, in which case they'll get to select another...then another 1st level at level 3, for a total of three 1st level spells, then one at level 2. These are potential spells..in other words, they are recorded in the spellbook, but are still Vancian in nature.

3.) As per Holmes, upon creation the brand new magic-user rolls for a "chance to know" percentage for each spell listed in the rules, and gets to then make his selection of a single spell.

4.) ...or another way, OR (in case the above was interpreted "wrong" by myself) in some manner utilizing the above information in another way.

I personally prefer method 2, but I'm curious how others handle this part of the rules. To me, it's one of those "you-figure-it-out" things in OD&D that makes it my favorite system.

[llenlleawg]

Jan 16, 2012 9:22:33 GMT -6 @wizzard said:

1.) The spell book for a brand new, 1st level magic-user has ALL of the spells listed in the 1st level listings, but the magic-user must select the single spell to take with them on dungeon crawl. Should they get back to their book, they could select another spell for next time.

This method is fine if you have quite limited spell lists as in the original books. Plus, you could research new spells that would be in your books alone, so hunting down spell books is still a motivation for MUs. Not my preferred style, but certainly easy.

2.) The brand new 1st level magic-user must select a spell to "write in his book" upon creation. This is the only spell he or she has until they raise in level, in which case they'll get to select another...then another 1st level at level 3, for a total of three 1st level spells, then one at level 2. These are potential spells..in other words, they are recorded in the spellbook, but are still Vancian in nature.

Not my style, really. I rather like that the MU, like the cleric, has an array of spells to prepare, even if there is a theoretical upper limit after which the paralysis from too many options steps in.

3.) As per Holmes, upon creation the brand new magic-user rolls for a "chance to know" percentage for each spell listed in the rules, and gets to then make his selection of a single spell.

While there are varieties of ways this has been read, the Greyhawk/Holmes reading (which carried on to AD&D) is my preferred style. On my reading, the MU has all known spells in his spell book. The "selection of a single spell" is only that he can memorize/prepare a single spell at 1st level, although, as per Holmes, he can create a scroll of any spell he knows, given time and gold. He can also (a) check again for spells (up to his limit) on gaining a level and (b) research new spells to add.

[Deleted]

So, the MU gets all the spells at that level in the book, but must select which one to "take with them"? Given the gold and the time, scrolls, of course, are fine.

[talysman]

I go with #1. The spell list in Men & Magic is the list of commonly-known 1st level spells. After that, M-Us add spells whenever they research them.

That's by the book. My out-of-the-book additions are that captured spellbooks are worth 1000 gp/spell level to research spells contained therein. Read Magic lets you determine what spells are in a captured spellbook, but doesn't enable you to cast the spells: spellbooks aren't scrolls.

[Deleted]

Thanks Talysman....that's the way I may run it from now on...granted I get a group together again...ever!

[snorri]

I do'nt have lbbs under hand, but a possible reading is that any magic-user has access to the books for each level (one volume by level) from start, but can't use them befaore he gets the proper level.

Also, he choose a spell for an adventure until he can get back home anbd study again the book to change - so that spell come backs everyday without studying it - as long as he didn't changed.

For a holmes pbp, I used the follwing system : each m-u can use any spell form the book, once per day, but need to roll a % to knwo to remeber the formulae. He can try again if he loose, so it's fun when times matter.

[inkmeister]

Hello all - sorry to revive a somewhat old thread; I tried searching and looking back through 13 pages of men&magic with no further help (I could have missed something though). This is my first post here; I've lurked a long time and enjoy - immensely - reading many of your guys posts.

I finally recently acquired the 3 lbb's, and upon reading them, I am really surprised at how vague they really do seem to be (though awesome just the same)!

Anyhow, I would simply like to bump the OP's question to see if anyone else would share their interpretation of how magic users acquire spells (as close to btb as possible, as well as personal variations). Do magic users truly start with all 1st level spells? Do magic users automatically have all spells of a given level when they are high enough level to cast them, or do they have to research spells on the spell list?

Further, I would love some discussion about personal thoughts as to how OD&D handles MU spell acquisition in light of future revisions (ie moldvay, for instance). IE, would many of you make a case that OD&D is too generous, or that future iterations were too conservative?

I'm not sure how I will handle the situation yet (I'd like more information from far more experienced folks than I), but I do like the idea that magic using types would want to adventure to seek out long lost arcane secrets. Automatically gaining spells at level up seems to weaken that motivation for adventuring (sure there are other motivations as well).

That is all. Thanks!

[Stormcrow]

Oct 19, 2012 7:32:32 GMT -6 inkmeister said:

(as close to btb as possible, as well as personal variations). Do magic users truly start with all 1st level spells? Do magic users automatically have all spells of a given level when they are high enough level to cast them, or do they have to research spells on the spell list?

In the bit that talks about sharing spells, it says that once a new spell is shared it should be written on the spell lists in the book, because it is now "out there" and generally available. This tells me that the spell lists in the book are known by everyone, and every spell caster (magic-user and cleric) has them in his or her books. Hence, a spell caster's book or books are filled with spells from the start, and there is much less pressure to expand them than in later rules.

A nice benefit of this is that the referee need not specify the contents of every NPC spell caster's books, just what spells they have memorized and any unshared spells in the books.

[inkmeister]

Stormcrow - wow, you're right - I guess I had glossed over that section. Men and Magic page 34:

"Once a new spell is created, the researcher may include it in the list appropriate to its level. He may inform others of it, thus enabling them to utilize it, or he may keep it to himself."

It doesn't say you have to teach others how to use it - just informing them of its existence implies that they can then use it. That's pretty weird to me, coming to OD&D after looking at almost every other version of D&D first, but that's what it seems to say. Is this how others here read it, too?

Also, on the same page: "Characters who employ spells are assumed to acquire books containing the spells they can use, one book for each level."

The key word here is "assumed;" as in, the game seems to treat this as automatic. You don't automatically have to read this as saying that a MU (or cleric) gets all spells of a given level automatically, but it at least hints that some spells are gained automatically, (and there is no good reason, in light of the above, to think that they DON'T get all spells automatically.

To me this interpretation implies that magic is sort of a common language among all people who use it. Spells generally aren't unknown or hidden among those of a similar power level. Magic isn't so obscure and arcane - it's sort of common knowledge. The question is how much capacity do you, as an individual magic user, have for memorizing these commonly known spells? Interesting. So different than what I'm used to.

Thanks again Stormcrow. Further comments certainly welcomed - I think a lot of people out there are ignorant on this issue - it's hard to look at this game without carrying bias from other versions.

I'm also curious if many of you that share the above interpretation choose to stick to it, or modify it with house rules (or some future version's approach).

[noffham]

What we did back in the day was that every time your # spells per day increased, you could pick one new spell from the list for each new spell you gained. Other spells were gleaned from found/captured spell books or researched.

Finding spell books was one of the big reasons Magic-Users adventured.

[talysman]

Well, to expand on my interpretation earlier: the 1st level spell list in Men & Magic is what I assume is common knowledge, or at least common among people who study magic. Other spells are rumored and can be researched or perhaps purchased, if you find a city with a thriving magical community. Thus, I don't automatically grant knowledge of 2nd level spells or higher; they must be found, bought, or researched.

My model for magic is the grimoires of the magical revival era, such as Francis Barrett's The Magus or the books of Eliphas Levi. A spell book contains tables and lists of spirit names, magical ingredients, and the areas of activity governed by various planets, with their correspondences. A magician looks up the names and correspondences that cover a given day and hour and preps (memorizes) the spell. Thus, spell books in my campaign don't really contain spells in the sense described in AD&D, where each spell known must be recorded on 1 page per level and you can calculate the size of a spell book based on the number of spells known. They contain all the details necessary to cast *any* spell of that level, with the magician's personal notes scribbled in the margins on other possible uses. This is why a Magic-User who loses a spell book can just pay for a replacement without having to track down copies of each spell known. Magic-Users know the spells they know; it's the tables that need to be replaced.

Clerics are assumed to share more with each other, and clerical magic is simpler in structure, so all spells in the LBBs are available immediately upon reaching the appropriate level, and new spells spread quickly if the cleric shares the knowledge (clerics who don't share the knowledge will probably face repercussions.)

[inkmeister]

Noffham, I like your approach, as it is in line with how I have typically done things. However, everyone has said to approach the LBB's for what they are, and as I'm trying to do that, I just don't see how your approach fits btb. Yours sounds like a variation (or copy) of Moldvay D&D.

Talysman, thanks for your very interesting reply. I really dig your thoughts on how spell books work. So knowing the spells has to do with your personal knowledge as a MU, but the spell book is like a basic tool to let you tap into your own knowledge. Almost like a computer is a tool for a hacker. You still have to develop your personal skills though (ie the magic users has to research new spells beyond first level).

Both of the above approaches appeal to me because I think there should be a bit of a money sink in acquiring magic - drain many thousands of gold that way - and because I think there is something pulpy and cool about sorcerers seeking out ancient knowledge in dangerous, hidden places.

I think Stormcrow's view has the most btb legitimacy though. I'm admittedly a newbie, but it seems like magic users and clerics work basically the same way in OD&D. Ie, the 3 books don't seem to give the same attention to the differences between clerics and magic users that Moldvay and others do, and thus it looks like the original conception was that both clerics and magic users have all spells available that they are able to cast. Later on, for whatever reason, it seems that various editors decided to let clerics keep all spells of a given level, and decided to nerf magic users with various restrictions on what spells they know at the start and can learn as they progress. Moldvay seems an especially strict example (can only have spells in the spell book equal to what you can cast in a day!).

The near total lack of discussion in the LBB's of these two classes and how magic works is really surprising to me. It's like the designers published impartial notes of what they were doing and forgot to fill in the blanks with whatever was floating around in their heads. I dunno.

Thanks for all the discussion so far - I certainly would appreciate more if anyone wants to chime in. I'm not at all sure how I'm going to do things yet.

[Zenopus]

Oct 19, 2012 16:34:18 GMT -6 inkmeister said:

Later on, for whatever reason, it seems that various editors decided to let clerics keep all spells of a given level, and decided to nerf magic users with various restrictions on what spells they know at the start and can learn as they progress. Moldvay seems an especially strict example (can only have spells in the spell book equal to what you can cast in a day!).

It wasn't a later editor - it was Gygax in the first supplement, Greyhawk, published the year (1975) after D&D first came out. Greyhawk adds a number of spells for each M-U (and Cleric) spell level, but also adds the % chance to know table. Note that IIRC, Gronan has pointed out that many of the rules in Greyhawk were already being used in Lake Geneva before the first D&D set was even published - I wonder when they started using the % chance to know.

The near total lack of discussion in the LBB's of these two classes and how magic works is really surprising to me. It's like the designers published impartial notes of what they were doing and forgot to fill in the blanks with whatever was floating around in their heads. I dunno.

It's not a bug, it's a feature. The DM can decide how it works in his/her campaign.

[inkmeister]

Zenopus - Thanks for mentioning the Greyhawk supplement changes. I haven't looked at that book at all - I don't have it. I've also heard that the thief was intended to be part of the game before the first set was ever released.

I am not at all dissing the LBB's! You should have seen my joy at acquiring this game, finally. I can clearly see how easily mod-able this game is, and that's absolutely a good thing, not a bug. The thing is, my personal goal is to really "get" the game as it is before I go changing it around. I'd like to better understand how it was intended to be played. I'm 29 years old and grew up playing 2nd edition where it was all about character and fantastical settings and stories and so on. My goal is to really get what the first RPG gamers were doing and trying to do with their game. THAT is what is difficult for me to get, reading the books.

I'm also fascinated with what a regular person would have thought in 1974 when they bought this thing and tried to figure it out. They didn't have Holmes or Moldvay or anything to influence their perception.

Anyhow, I'm getting off topic. I fully appreciate all the variety of views on the spell acquisition issue, but I'm also very interested in doing it btb. Perhaps btb is impossible, as it is too vague. (Though, again, I think StormCrow has a strong case, even if that's not how I would prefer to do it if I were making the game).

[Deleted]

I never played a magic user past about third level so I don't remember how we did it forty years ago.

Inkmeister, if you REALLY want to "get" the LBBs, I suggest getting your mitts on a copy of CHAINMAIL if at all possible.

[inkmeister]

Hey Michael Mornard - Thanks for chiming in. I sure have enjoyed reading some of the game reports of games you DM'd - I think I read them at blog of holding.

I'm curious, how would YOU do it now (handle spell acquisition for magic users in an OD&D game)?

I will be on the lookout for chainmail!

Nick

[blackbarn]

I'm running my first OD&D game right now, and our magic-user is not yet able to cast 2nd level spells, so I have not had to handle that yet. She does have access to all the 1st level spells listed in the rules, however. I think I may go with the idea of having all the listed spells for each level commonly known and available, but then slipping in "personal" or unique spells in some NPC spellbooks, so those can be found and added to the PC's book as well. I really like the idea mentioned that each spellbook is just a listing of magical information, and must be consulted each day to prepare the known spells properly. That's flavorful, and fits the rules.

And welcome, inkmeister. This is the right place if you want to understand how people approached the game back when it was new.

[inkmeister]

Thank you for the welcome, blackbarn. I've been lurking here for a couple years, so I feel like I know a lot of you guys, even if just a little bit. I never commented because I never had a copy of the original game, nor had I ever played it.

As a relatively new DM (I have played lately, but haven't DM'd since I was a teenager), I plan to start with Moldvay to get a grip on things, but in the future I see myself very much going off on a Geoffrey type path - drop the cleric, keep only FM and MU, tweak everything like crazy, basing everything off OD&D.

I am really surprised at the huge difference between Moldvay and OD&D as far as magic users go. Moldvay with known spells = how many spells you can cast per day, and starting with only one spell (since that is all you can cast at level 1), vs OD&D where all first level spells are known, and arguably all spells are known once one is at a high enough level to cast them.

Both are intriguing paths, but I wonder why Moldvay decided to diverge so much on this point from the originals. Yes, Greyhawk and Holmes seem to limit the MU somewhat from the original, but nowhere near as much as Moldvay.

[Stormcrow]

I presume it was for simplicity. If the only spells you know are the ones you get for gaining levels, then you don't need rules for finding or copying spells from scrolls or spell books, or having to distinguish between a "known" spell and a "memorized" spell, or having to set limits on how many spells may be known or on the chance to learn a spell.

[noffham]

Oct 19, 2012 16:34:18 GMT -6 inkmeister said:

Noffham, I like your approach, as it is in line with how I have typically done things. However, everyone has said to approach the LBB's for what they are, and as I'm trying to do that, I just don't see how your approach fits btb. Yours sounds like a variation (or copy) of Moldvay D&D.

It may sound like that but it isn't, the approach I note is how we did it in 1974. First level magic users knew one spell. When Greyhawk came out, the expansion of spells known based on INT was a revelation.

I don't recall anyone in any of the local groups playing at the time who thought Magic-Users "knew" every spell on the list.

[inkmeister]

Noffham - I'm always fascinated to hear how people interpreted the game when it first came out. I started much later, and so my view is always at least a little skewed by what came after OD&D.

I can see how a person could get the idea that magic user's only have one spell. My question to you, then, is how did you handle clerics? The same way?

[mordrene]

i agree, its cool to see how it was handled on the "days of old". I started with moldvay in 83 so we picked spells by everyone had to have read magic and the random rolls. the number of rolls equal to the intelligence bonus. theu a wizard with a 17 int had read magic and 2 more random spells.

now clerics. we recently ran a moldvay game and we used clerical magic as generic slots that were filled when the cleric casts. we ruled that the spell was a type of prayer that the cleric asked for and received.

[noffham]

Yes, Clerics were also limited in spells known at first. And again the revelation in Greyhawk was that cleric spells are divinely granted and so all clerics know all spells regardless of Wisdom. Of course, back then the cure spells were always the first ones clerics went for. (They could also fight after all so versatility wasn't as big an issue).

Of course back then my group was in High School so we played the game to death, several times a week after school hours and sometimes all weekend. We went through reams of characters so you could always try different things out, often within a single day's play if the DM was really tough.

[Deleted]

Since folks are interested in how we did it in the 1970's? I'll throw my remarks in as well.

We granted the magic-user a spell book with all the spells of the appropriate level in it when he gained the ability to cast them. Where did they come from? We didn't worry about it. It was fun to have them, so he had them.

Now if he lost those spell books? He was in for some difficulty replacing them!

[Deleted]

We gave clerics all the appropriate spells, too.