What is a "Hero"?

[Finarvyn]

As I ponder character level scale in OD&D, I think one of the funamental issues comes down to the definition of a Hero. This seems to be the fundamental starting point in terms of level cap discussions, scale of monsters, demihuman level limits, and other conversations we have on these boards.

Here's what Chainmail has to say:

Heroes (and Anti-heroes): Included in this class are certain well-known knights, leaders of army contingents, and similar men. They hove the fighting ability of four figures, the class being dependent on the arms and equipment of the Hero types themselves, who can range from Light Foot to Heavy Horse. Heroes (and Anti-heroes) need never check morale, and they add 1 to the die or dice of their unit (or whatever unit they are with). They are the last figure in a unit that will be killed by regular missile fire of melee, but they may be attacked individually by enemy troops of like type (such as other Hero-types) or creatures shown an the Fantasy Combat Table. Heroes (and Anti-heroes) may act independent of their command in order to combat same other fantastic character. When meleed by regular troops, and combat takes place on the non-Fantasy Combat Tables, four simultaneous kills must be scored against Heroes (or Anti-heroes) to eliminate them. Otherwise, there is no effect upon them.

And just for fun, Chainmail's take on the Super Hero:

Super Heroes: Few and far between, these fellows are one-man armies! (Particularly when armed with magical weaponry.)

So, we're looking at an independant character who is hard to kill and never has to check morale. Sounds a lot like a typical character in a fantasy novel.

The question becomes: if a typical hero is a Hero (4th level), what does that do to your concept of level scale?

• If a typical hero is a Hero, then Super Hero could represent the best ever in fiction. Conan could be a Super Hero. That could imply that OD&D was intended to be capped out around 8th level in its original design.
  
• If a typical hero is a Hero, then level limits aren't a big deal.
  
• If a typical hero is a Hero, then monsters are still scary. I often wonder how a 15th level AD&D fighter feels fear when encountering a 12 HD dragon. If you're 4th level, however, the dragon may make you soil your armor.

Anyway, not telling anyone how to play their campaign, but instead just thinking about the game and wondering what was in the heads of the designers at its genesis.

I've posted elsewhere about my "half level" projects, where I create levels in between those given so characters can advance faster but end up without so much power. I may have to dust those things off again and revisit this idea.

Just me thinking out loud.

[stevemitchell]

In Hyborian terms, Conan is the only Superhero.

Taurus, Balthus, Pallantides, Valeria, Belit, Trocero, Constantius, and the like are all Heroes (unless you run a Thief class, in which case, switch Taurus over there).

In other Howard worlds:

The James Allison pre-existent selves--Hunwulf the Wanderer, Bane the Reaver, Brachan the Celt, Niord, etc.--are all Heroes.

King Kull is a Superhero, Brule the Spear-Slayer is a Hero.

Bran Mak Morn is a Superhero, Cormac na Connacht is a Hero.

Turlogh O'Brien is a Superhero, Athelstane the Saxon is a Hero.

Solomon Kane is a Superhero, Sir Richard Grenville is a Hero.

Gottfried von Kalmbach and Red Sonya of Rogatino are both Heroes.

Esau Cairn is a Hero when he arrives on Almuric, but after spending a few months in the wastelands, he toughen up to Superhero status.

El Borak and Kirby O'Donnell are Heroes.

[aldarron]

Ditto that Fin. I really think Gygax's 1975 Thief class "proves" despite what he may have said about the levels being open ended, the the game was designed with the tacit understanding that 12 or thereabouts was God like standing and pretty much the end of the road. The thief is only extended to level 12 and the thief abilities are clearly divvied up so that level 12 is a maximum skill.

[geoffrey]

In the 1974 Warriors of Mars game, the levels top out at 13th--which level was occupied solely by John Carter.

I think things started to change in early 1975 with the publication of Supplement I: GREYHAWK with its 7th-level cleric spells (useable only by clerics of 17th or higher level) and its 9th-level magic-user spells (useable only by magic-users of 18th or higher level).

[Finarvyn]

stevemitchell, is your assertion that the top character of each of Howard's worlds is automatically a Super Hero? So Turlogh O'Brien, for example, is exactly the same level as Conan? I think you have a good thought overall, but once you compare different characters by the same author I start to wonder how well this works.

Geoffrey, great observation about Warriors of Mars.

[jacar]

You can kind of tell where the caps were supposed to be by LBB #1 M&M. Fighters stop gaining hit dice at 9. Clerics at 10 and Wizards at 11. Level 8 "Super Hero" is about right I think. It is the highest level before you really consider settling down and making a stronghold etc.

I've never had a problem with hero being 4th level. Quite frankly, that's where the experience gains level off and things progress more slowly.

So for me, at 8th level you have become legendary. Anything past that only adds to your legendary status. At 4th level you are truly heroic and may be called upon to take part in great battles. However, some might look elsewhere to slay the terrible fire breathing dragon.

[talysman]

Dec 23, 2011 13:42:10 GMT -6 jacar said:

You can kind of tell where the caps were supposed to be by LBB #1 M&M. Fighters stop gaining hit dice at 9. Clerics at 10 and Wizards at 11.

I'm not sure where you are getting those numbers... The tables in M&M show Fighters gaining a hit die at 10th level and M-Us gaining one at 15th; max Cleric HDs on the table occur at 8th level. One could cap hit dice there, but there are examples in the text for gaining hit dice beyond the table's limits: 11+1 HD for 12th level Fighters, 8+1 HD for 12th level Clerics. (Elsewhere, someone's mentioned the problems with these progressions, but I'm not going to dig out my notes, since it's not really relevant.)

I do think that there was a self-imposed cap of around 12th level (most players would start another character after that.)

[Finarvyn]

Dec 23, 2011 20:08:23 GMT -6 talysman said:

Dec 23, 2011 13:42:10 GMT -6 jacar said:

You can kind of tell where the caps were supposed to be by LBB #1 M&M. Fighters stop gaining hit dice at 9. Clerics at 10 and Wizards at 11.

I'm not sure where you are getting those numbers...

You're looking at pages 17-18, where they quote hit dice and fighting capability. Talysman is looking at page 16, where they give XP charts. My assumption has always been similar to Talysman's where the XP charts limit level progression and the HD/FC charts are designed for those high-level NPCs for the characters to fight.

[stevemitchell]

Fin,

I was just making a quick assessment based on the two rankings you discussed, Hero and Superhero. So yes, in 1017 A.D. or thereabouts, and without considering crossovers, Turlogh O'Brien is a Superhero.

With a range from 1st to 10th level, though, which I prefer, then Conan is a 10, Kull rates a 9, Bran, Turlogh, and Solomon Kane are each 8, and pretty much everyone else is a 4 or 5(Balthus might even be a 3).

Except for the ever-problematical case of Esau Cairn, who starts at 4 but then makes a quantum leap to 8.

[Finarvyn]

Dec 23, 2011 20:44:49 GMT -6 stevemitchell said:

I was just making a quick assessment based on the two rankings you discussed, Hero and Superhero. So yes, in 1017 A.D. or thereabouts, and without considering crossovers, Turlogh O'Brien is a Superhero.

That's cool. I was just trying to see what you were thinking on this. It certainly makes sense to define the best hero of any campaign to be level 8 (or 10 or whatever) as long as you don't do crossover games.

[Lord Kjeran]

A hero, you ask?

[kesher]

I've posted elsewhere about my "half level" projects, where I create levels in between those given so characters can advance faster but end up without so much power. I may have to dust those things off again and revisit this idea.

I remember those! Didn't you at one point have level advancement up to 100?? Awesome.

[kesher]

The James Allison pre-existent selves--Hunwulf the Wanderer, Bane the Reaver, Brachan the Celt, Niord, etc.--are all Heroes.

Oddly, I just read a few of these. I have to quibble: Niord = Superhero.

[DungeonDevil]

Given that Conan was captured, wounded, tortured, etc. throughout his illustrious life I am hesitant to equate him with any CM lvl which granted the ability to remain aloof from injury and the tangible possibility of death. I would grant him the lvl Hero but nothing higher. Not even Beowulf (of the original poem, not the hideous Zemeckis video-cartoon abomination) was invulnerable. Same goes for the boy-warrior Cuchullainn who was killed and tied to a tree (according to one account).

Hero, IIRC, is Greek for demi-god. In the course of modern times the word has been diluted by the abuse of the media (much like the word 'classic') and no longer signifies anything more than an ordinary mortal who happened to rescue a kitten from a burning crack-house.

[Deleted]

I'm coming in a little late to this discussion, but as it's a topic near and dear to me, I thought I'd weigh in.

I like the idea of classes having a soft cap of 10th level or so.

Philotomy (I believe) posted at one time that he believed higher levels were possible, but it suggested a single-minded obsession. (ex: the mad wizard locked in his tower making dark pacts, or the knight who insists on challenging everyone to a joust trying to find a worthy opponent.)

This could fit the assumption that the HD/FC figures on page 17-18 (separate from the XP charts) are intended for high level NPCs. If you look at Moldvay Basic, for example, there are some basic rules for 4th-5th level characters...as adversaries.

10th level allows a cleric to raise dead (Lvl 5 spell), which sounds like a penultimate ability to me. Magic Users and Fighting Men are also extremely powerful at this stage. After this point (Lvl 6 spells) the MU's spells dwarf the fighting man's capabilities. Aldarron noted that even the Greyhawk Thief's skills top out around 12th.

I'm thinking that even though OD&D asserts pretty strongly that there is no upper character limit....it wasn't recommended.

[Stormcrow]

The classes already have a "soft cap": when their XP progression changes from exponential to linear. This is the moment when the character has reached the pinnacle of ability. From this point on, he engages in adventures less and in rulership and politics more.

To go back to Conan: Superhero is where he is when he becomes king of Aquilonia. From then on, his adventures change from battling beasts in towers and ruins to leading armies. He might still go on the occasional adventure, but he's not hungry for it like he used to be.

Fighters become Lords of realms; clerics become Patriarchs of realms with followers; magic-users become Wizards living in towers. Their XP progression slows and becomes linear.

[Deleted]

It's not a question of "level cap" but rather one of progression.

Rob Kuntz took Robilar up to 14th level in something like 2 or 3 years of play at least once per week, mostly solo.

And he STILL barely made it to 14th level. Contrast this with the modern "characters level up every four or five adventures."

It doesn't matter if it's theoretically possible to advance to squabillionth level; if you're only getting 20% XP for gold from a dragon's hoard because there was no challenge, it will be a long, long, LONG time before you hit 20th level.