Fantasy Creatures in CM

[jacar]

Hi all,

The rules say that in normal combat, fantasy creatures are only killed by X simultaneous hits. An Ogre can take 4 hits in one turn before it dies in normal combat, otherwise, all the hist are forgiven and the attacks start fresh next turn.

I was thinking that any creature just has wounds equal to number of men the attack as. Wounds remain. I figure, it will be tough to damage these creatures in combat anyway if they are properly supported since you could only get a small number of normal men on them anyway. Then heroes simply attack them as the number of men they represent causing wounds etc.

This would, of course, dispense with the fantasy combat table which I think is not necessary anyway. It's just another chart that clutters things up.

Thoughts?

John

[Mushgnome]

Page 34:

Ogres are killed when they have taken an accumulation of six missile or melee hits in
normal combat. Elves can kill them with three hits, and Hero-types or magical
weapons kill them with a single hit.

(edit) You are probably thinking of "true trolls." Trolls can only be killed by heroes, fantasy creatures, or magic weapons. In D&D of course this morphs into the regeneration ability.

[jacar]

Nov 22, 2011 10:11:10 GMT -6 Mushgnome said:

Page 34:

Ogres are killed when they have taken an accumulation of six missile or melee hits in
normal combat. Elves can kill them with three hits, and Hero-types or magical
weapons kill them with a single hit.

It was a WAG example. Most bigger creatures require "simultaneous hits".

[Mushgnome]

"Simultaneous hits" is a unique feature of Heroes (and incidentally Lycanthropes, the Hero leaders of wolf and bear packs) and applies only vs. normal men. Also note that heroes "are the last figure in a unit that will be killed" by regular missile/melee attacks. These two rules allow you to play out the common genre trope of two opposing heroes locked in mortal combat, oblivious to the battle raging all around them.

All the other fantastical opponents fall into one of two categories:

1. Killed by 1 or more cumulative hits (just like D&D)

or

2. Immune to normal weapons, fights on the Fantasy table

[cooper]

The reason lycanthropes take simultaneous hits is because lycanthropes are the "neutral heroes" in CM. l la Beorn from the hobbit.

Hero
Lycanthrope
Anti-hero

But yes, to answer the OP, ogres take 4 accumulated hits just like d&d. If you introduce cleric heroes, or potions of healing, you can always do away with simultaneous hits all together.

[Mushgnome]

Nov 22, 2011 12:32:31 GMT -6 cooper said:

But yes, to answer the OP, ogres take 4 accumulated hits just like d&d.

My 3rd edition scan says six hits.

[jacar]

Nov 22, 2011 12:32:31 GMT -6 cooper said:

The reason lycanthropes take simultaneous hits is because lycanthropes are the "neutral heroes" in CM. l la Beorn from the hobbit.

Hero
Lycanthrope
Anti-hero

But yes, to answer the OP, ogres take 4 accumulated hits just like d&d. If you introduce cleric heroes, or potions of healing, you can always do away with simultaneous hits all together.

And that is kind of my goal. To do away with it all together and use a common mechanism for all combat.

Consider the super hero. 8 hits to kill in ONE turn. He is also the last man to be hit in a unit. So, you could put him on the front rank for fighting and then all of the guys around him act as "meat shield" giving him even more wounds!

[cooper]

The "last man killed" is only in mass combat 1:20 scale, where the hero is not actually fighting, but rather giving a passive +1 to all dice throws to the units he leads--this is a variation of the army commander rule, where the army commander is the last individual killed.

In 1:1 combat, the hero is not the last one attacked at all, but is a normal combatant just like d&d.

The reason for the former, is an opponent cannot claim to kill your hero/army commander in mass combat using the mass combat rules i.e. your hero cannot be a random casualty, to kill a hero he needs to be singled out in either d&d (d20) or man to man/FCT/etc


Say a hero is leading 200 heavy foot (10 units). The goblins kill 3 units in the first turn; the player of the goblin cannot claim to have killed the hero in mass combat, even if the hero was physically with one of the 3 units removed from the field. To kill the hero, he must be attacked individually--or if all 10 units are removed, only then is the hero killed/captured/removed and unlike the army commander, a hero will still be alive if all 10 units are defeated--conan will be the last man standing even if all his troops are slaughtered--he must be killed in man to man/fantastic combat, not by a stray arrow.

Now if conan is with 10 men at arms and 20 goblins attack, many of the goblins can go right for conan, just like d&d. The "last man killed" is only for mass combat.

[jacar]

Nov 22, 2011 14:35:08 GMT -6 cooper said:

The "last man killed" is only in mass combat 1:20 scale, where the hero is not actually fighting, but rather giving a passive +1 to all dice throws to the units he leads--this is a variation of the army commander rule, where the army commander is the last individual killed.

In 1:1 combat, the hero is not the last one attacked at all, but is a normal combatant just like d&d.

The reason for the former, is an opponent cannot claim to kill your hero/army commander in mass combat using the mass combat rules i.e. your hero cannot be a random casualty, to kill a hero he needs to be singled out in either d&d (d20) or man to man/FCT/etc


Say a hero is leading 200 heavy foot (10 units). The goblins kill 3 units in the first turn; the player of the goblin cannot claim to have killed the hero in mass combat, even if the hero was physically with one of the 3 units removed from the field. To kill the hero, he must be attacked individually--or if all 10 units are removed, only then is the hero killed/captured/removed and unlike the army commander, a hero will still be alive if all 10 units are defeated--conan will be the last man standing even if all his troops are slaughtered--he must be killed in man to man/fantastic combat, not by a stray arrow.

Now if conan is with 10 men at arms and 20 goblins attack, many of the goblins can go right for conan, just like d&d. The "last man killed" is only for mass combat.

I generally think of the fantasy Supplement in massed combat terms. I don't play the MtM rules anymore. I have and was not really fond of them. never the less all you mention are valid points.

[Mushgnome]

Nov 22, 2011 13:39:58 GMT -6 jacar said:

Consider the super hero. 8 hits to kill in ONE turn. He is also the last man to be hit in a unit. So, you could put him on the front rank for fighting and then all of the guys around him act as "meat shield" giving him even more wounds!

Normal men have little chance of killing a hero or especially a superhero. I believe this is as it should be.

However if the opposing army has trolls, balrogs, dragons, etc. then the odds are evened.

You are conceiving of Chainmail figures like D&D characters, but they're actually more like chess pieces.

[Mushgnome]

Nov 22, 2011 14:35:08 GMT -6 cooper said:

The "last man killed" is only in mass combat 1:20 scale, where the hero is not actually fighting, but rather giving a passive +1 to all dice throws to the units he leads--this is a variation of the army commander rule, where the army commander is the last individual killed.

In 1:1 combat, the hero is not the last one attacked at all, but is a normal combatant just like d&d.

Exactly right, I agree 100% with your analysis. My point was that two rules combine to make Heroes uniquely hard to kill. In 1:20 scale, they are the last unit killed; in 1:1 scale we have the "simultaneous hits" rule. Whichever of the two systems you use, Heroes (including Superheroes and Lycanthropes) are uniquely resistant to being killed by minor foes.

I just noticed that Heroes also have an extra advantage on the Fantasy Combat Table, which is that they can "withdraw from combat" if the opponent misses. (Wizards and Wraiths also share this ability.) I am not sure exactly how this plays out, but it's another example of how the rules make Heroes harder to kill than other figures.

[Stormcrow]

That ogres are killed after taking an "accumulation of six hits" means six hits during one turn, just like the Hero. No one is expected to keep track of "hit points" in a straight-up game of Chainmail. It's just not worded very well. This is true of all fantastic creatures.

[cooper]

Which reminds me, 4, 6, or even 8 simultaneous hits in a combat turn isn't actually as difficult as it sounds give that multiple rounds of combat are possible, even 3 normal men will be able to get in as many as 9 or more telling blows in a single turn.

So a hero fighting a few normal men might be slaughtered easily enough.

[Stormcrow]

Assuming they make their morale checks, that's exactly right.

[Mushgnome]

Nov 25, 2011 17:03:05 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

That ogres are killed after taking an "accumulation of six hits" means six hits during one turn, just like the Hero. No one is expected to keep track of "hit points" in a straight-up game of Chainmail. It's just not worded very well. This is true of all fantastic creatures.

Do you have a source for this claim? "Cumulative" and "simultaneous" have very different dictionary definitions and I would be stunned if Gygax did not understand the difference in meaning between these two words.

I stand by my opinion that Heroes, Superheroes, and Lycanthropes are killed by "simultaneous hits," Ogres, Rocs, and Giants are killed by "cumulative hits," and the difference in wording is intentional.

[Stormcrow]

Nov 25, 2011 17:26:55 GMT -6 Mushgnome said:

Do you have a source for this claim?

Just what I know of how miniature wargames are played: you rarely keep track of special states of figures; whatever happens needs to be visible on the table.

"Cumulative" and "simultaneous" have very different dictionary definitions and I would be stunned if Gygax did not understand the difference in meaning between these two words.

It's six hits accumulated through the course of a single turn. If a unit makes three hits on an ogre in melee, drives it back, and makes three more hits, that's six accumulated hits, killing the ogre.

But considering the turn as a whole, those six hits were "simultaneous"—that is, they all took place in a single turn.

[cooper]

Nov 25, 2011 17:26:55 GMT -6 Mushgnome said:

Nov 25, 2011 17:03:05 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

That ogres are killed after taking an "accumulation of six hits" means six hits during one turn, just like the Hero. No one is expected to keep track of "hit points" in a straight-up game of Chainmail. It's just not worded very well. This is true of all fantastic creatures.

Do you have a source for this claim? "Cumulative" and "simultaneous" have very different dictionary definitions and I would be stunned if Gygax did not understand the difference in meaning between these two words.

I stand by my opinion that Heroes, Superheroes, and Lycanthropes are killed by "simultaneous hits," Ogres, Rocs, and Giants are killed by "cumulative hits," and the difference in wording is intentional.

I agree, if a hero does not accumulate 4 hits within the turn, he is reset (the player may use him some other time perhaps later in the battle with no residual or ill effects), the ogre on the other hand is not a hero unit, and as such, like a weakened unit, he remains weakened throughout the battle, if the ogre had taken two hits by normal men, if later he meets a hero, this ogre unit now only has 4 hits remaining, just as 6 units of heavy foot when weakened by 2, remain as 4 units of heavy foot.

The hero can take 4 accumulated hits over multiple rounds and be defeated, however he "resets" every turn. Only heroes/lycan/anti heroes have this ability.

[Mushgnome]

Nov 25, 2011 17:32:15 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

Nov 25, 2011 17:26:55 GMT -6 Mushgnome said:

Do you have a source for this claim?

Just what I know of how miniature wargames are played: you rarely keep track of special states of figures; whatever happens needs to be visible on the table.

I understand what you're getting at here. However the situation comes up very rarely (rocs, ogres, and giants only; and only when they are facing non-heroic regular troops). Furthermore I would regard the Fantasy Supplement as not strictly speaking a traditional miniature wargame, but rather as a transitional document between Chainmail and D&D.

[blackpuddin5x5]

Nov 22, 2011 14:35:08 GMT -6 cooper said:

Say a hero is leading 200 heavy foot (10 units). The goblins kill 3 units in the first turn; the player of the goblin cannot claim to have killed the hero in mass combat, even if the hero was physically with one of the 3 units removed from the field. To kill the hero, he must be attacked individually--or if all 10 units are removed, only then is the hero killed/captured/removed and unlike the army commander, a hero will still be alive if all 10 units are defeated--conan will be the last man standing even if all his troops are slaughtered--he must be killed in man to man/fantastic combat, not by a stray arrow.

Now if conan is with 10 men at arms and 20 goblins attack, many of the goblins can go right for conan, just like d&d. The "last man killed" is only for mass combat.

It confused me, initially, but I believe you are using "units" in places of the word "figures". Each figure represents 1:20, 1:10 or 1:1, and may form into units. When kills are stuck, a unit loses a number of figures, no matter what ratio.

If a "Heroes" figure is joined with a unit of 10 heavy foot figures(at 1:20), then the "Hereos" figure represents a group of 20 Heroes. They will still count as "4 figures, making the unit a total of 14 figures, for purposes of dice vs other units. Lycanthropes, as I understand it, may be alone(in 1:1 ratio) or summon 9 or 19 animals(in 1:10 or 1:20). The normal rules for unit to unit combat, combined with the description of the fantasy figures, looks to work seamlessly regardless of ratio. At least, that's how it seems to work.

[Stormcrow]

Dec 9, 2013 4:22:20 GMT -6 blackpuddin5x5 said:

If a "Heroes" figure is joined with a unit of 10 heavy foot figures(at 1:20), then the "Hereos" figure represents a group of 20 Heroes.

No, the figure represents a single Hero, but the mechanics of the game remain the same nonetheless.

[blackpuddin5x5]

I can't find any instruction on mixing fantasy figures with higher scales, but shouldn't a 1:20 scale be assumed to mean 20 per figure? Same as normal foot, horse, catapults and archers, I would think. You could rule dragons and wizards powerful enough, I suppose, but I can't find confirmation that this was the intent, in CM.

[Stormcrow]

It was probably considered so obvious it didn't need mentioning. But you can work it out from various turns of phrase in the text:

"A Hero-type, armed with a bow," (not "armed with bows")
"Few and far between, these fellows are one-man armies!"
Magic arrows have "Point Value -- 10 per arrow." How would this make sense if magic arrows could only be fired by a group of heroes?
The section on combination figures uses an example of Elric of Melniboné, who is obviously not a group of men, and who can easily slaughter hundreds of enemies in a battle.

It's also confirmed in D&D, in which "single fantastic types [fight] separately at 1:1 or otherwise against but a single 20:1 figure."

[Deleted]

FTIW, In Dragon #1, Len Lokofka presents some optional Chainmail rules where some creatures require simultaneous hits whereas others require cumulative hits. I'm not sure why he does this.

[blackpuddin5x5]

Dec 11, 2013 12:13:16 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

It was probably considered so obvious it didn't need mentioning. But you can work it out from various turns of phrase in the text:

"A Hero-type, armed with a bow," (not "armed with bows")
"Few and far between, these fellows are one-man armies!"
Magic arrows have "Point Value -- 10 per arrow." How would this make sense if magic arrows could only be fired by a group of heroes?
The section on combination figures uses an example of Elric of Melniboné, who is obviously not a group of men, and who can easily slaughter hundreds of enemies in a battle.

It's also confirmed in D&D, in which "single fantastic types [fight] separately at 1:1 or otherwise against but a single 20:1 figure."

It's obvious that the fantasy rules were meant for 1:1 scale, not that fantasy are meant to be mixed with 1:20 scale, while retaining 1:1. That's just 1 way to keep the same rules, while shifting scale. Saying a hero figure, represents 20 heroes, in a 1:20 scale game, is no different. Actually, it sounds less silly, to me.

[Stormcrow]

Sigh. What silly nonsense these boards promote. Oh well, believe what you will.