I need another name for Balrog

[jacar]

Title says it all. Not type IV/VI demon or anything. Winged <something> maybe.

Any suggestions?

John

[Azafuse]

Balrog became officially Balor with the 2nd Edition of AD&D, and it still is inside the SRD (it comes from the Irish Mythology, so it should be freely usable).

An alternative could be Gothrog (a fusion of Balrog and Gothmog), that IMHO could fit good both as a specific or a group name.


Just don't call it Vega or M. Bison. ;D

[Deleted]

Delving Deeper features a monster similar to one you describe (cough, cough) and we called it a Fire Demon. The descriptive text goes on to note the creature is not an actual demon but is called one because of its appearance.

[jacar]

Some good names here. I am partial to "gothrog". Pretty clever mash up. It also has a similar ring to Balrog. I am trying to stay away from "demon" simply to not turn off folks that might be less inclined to play with demons and devils. I include myself in that pack.

[Deleted]

Nov 18, 2011 9:32:03 GMT -6 jacar said:

I include myself in that pack.

That is understandable. How about this?

Have you seen Matt "Mythmere" Finch's rather clever play on the name? In the S&W Core Rules Monster Book he lists a monster called Baalroch, a contraction of Baal-aurochs or "Bull of Baal".

Matt is a terribly clever fellow and I have to admire this ingenious bit of wordplay. The name highlights both the evil and strong aspects of the creature, and the name sounds quite like Balrog. HTH!

[jacar]

Nov 18, 2011 9:51:31 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

Have you seen Matt "Mythmere" Finch's rather clever play on the name? In the S&W Core Rules Monster Book he lists a monster called Baalroch, a contraction of Baal-aurochs or "Bull of Baal".

Matt is a terribly clever fellow and I have to admire this ingenious bit of wordplay. The name highlights both the evil and strong aspects of the creature, and the name sounds quite like Balrog. HTH!

Hmmm....that's kind of a cool name. Sounds kind of Celtic. I like it. So now there is Baalroch and Gothrog. Both fine choices. So which one to choose?

[Deleted]

Nov 18, 2011 10:13:09 GMT -6 jacar said:

Both fine choices. So which one to choose?

Dude! Go "old school" and roll d2! (flip a coin)

[jacar]

LOL!

[jacar]

I went high tech. Check out the poll.

[harami2000]

Cthuga's (sic) Flame Creature; if you're going by the original Lake Geneva campaign.

[aldarron]

Being one who doesn't favor (actually really really dislikes) mixing judeao-christian mythologies with Nordic and/or middle-earthen ones, I don't much care for calling a balrog a demon, or using phoenician/canaanite name soundalikes for allies of Sauron.

In D@D I used the deceptively unclever "Barlog", but for Champions of ZED I've gone back to the original. In quenya a balrog (singular) is Valarauko. Since b and v are indistinguishable phonemes in some languages, I substitute b and drop o, - achieving a dialectical variant:

Balarauk

[aher]

"Balrog" is Sindarin for "demon of might." But it clearly has cognates with the two Hebrew words:

בעל ךע

(not sure if unicode shows up), which are the letters Beth-Ayin-Lamed Resh-Ayin, transliterated as "Baal Raa." That final "aa" makes a gutural "g" sound (as in "s'dom v'AAmora"="Sodom and Gomorah"). "Baal Raa" translates into: "Master (of) Evil" or "Lord of Bad(ness)." (You all know the verse: "Love thy *evil* as thyself"..."Raa" also means "neighbor" or "fellow." There's some ambiguity due to the lack of vowels in the original miqra--kabbalists love these double meanings.)

Because I run my campaigns in Mystara, I don't mind mixing up the Hebrew/Arabic, Celtic/Irish, Mongolian, Sanskrit/Pali, etc. We've got...

• The Emirates of Ylaruam = the medieval Islamic empire at its height
  
• The Five Shires, home of the hobbits -er- halflings (don't they do an Irish jig at Bilbo Baggin's birthday party in Peter Jackson's film?)
  
• The Golden Khan of Ethengar = the Mongols at the time of Kublai Khan
  
• Sind/Shahjapur = India
  
• Etc.
  

The evil cleric in my Keep on the Borderlands is basically Ayman Al Zawahiri. He's from Ylaruam, of course, and and he's radicalizing the nonhuman natives of the Grand Duchy of Karameikos (where the Keep is located) to take back their ancestral lands from the human settlers coming-in from the Empire of Thyatis. Why else would various orc tribes, goblins, trolls, ogres, minotaurs, etc., who don't normally get along, live side by side in the Caves of Chaos, unless it was some kind of holy war against a common foe that's uniting them? (The Keep is their co-belligerence issue.) Since Ylaruam is the northern neighbor of Thyatis, having Ylaruam traders and missionaries in Karameikos (Thyatis's western nighbor) isn't out of place, so the players shouldn't immediately suspect the Keep's cleric of being a terrorist mastermind unless they're Ylaruam-o-phobes. Area 51 on the map, the "Boulder Filled Passage," is an area the cleric is excavating to free a Baal Raa who was imprisoned in the Caves of the Unknown during the prior epoch. The Baal Raa is the WMD the cleric wants to unleash on the Keep and the settlers.

BUT if you really wanted something Celtic/Irish sounding instead, you could always go with something literal like "Máistir Olc."

Google Translate is your friend for finding translations that have whatever ethnic sound you're looking for...

translate.google.com/

As an aside, Marvel comics has a group of supervillains called the "Masters of Evil": the Melter, Radioactive Man, the Black Knight, and Nazi scientist Baron Heinrich Zemo.

Good luck naming your demon!

[Deleted]

Good grief. Just call a Balrog a Balrog.

Or honor the spirit of Gary Gygax and his convention for naming his player characters, and call it a Gorlab.

[Deleted]

Nov 19, 2011 11:19:30 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Good grief. Just call a Balrog a Balrog.

I just figured he had some LotR enthusiasts in his group who would argue "that isn't a balrog!" I recall some crazy thread on another board wherein a flame war broke out over whether balrogs had wings. The thing finally got locked IIRC.

Nov 19, 2011 11:19:30 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Or honor the spirit of Gary Gygax and his convention for naming his player characters, and call it a Gorlab.

That's actually a pretty good suggestion.

[premmy]

I think it's high time jacar spoke up and actually explained WHY he "needs" another name for it. Because until he does so, the only answer he'll get out of me is "No, you don't. Call it a Balrog."

[Deleted]

Nov 19, 2011 17:55:03 GMT -6 premmy said:

I think it's high time jacar spoke up and actually explained WHY he "needs" another name for it. Because until he does so, the only answer he'll get out of me is "No, you don't. Call it a Balrog."

Does it really matter why? He just wants a little help from other folks. Most of us have reached a place where the inspiration just ran dry, sometimes an idea from another gamer can really free up the stuck "machinery" of the mind.

Let's try to keep this a place where gamers can share ideas in a friendly manner.

[thorswulf]

How about the Sable Immoliator? Demon of Ebon Pyre? Wardpact of the Jet Eye? Hmmm maybe a little to Tekumel.....

[Deleted]

"As Goodgulf stepped onto the bridge the passage echoed with an ominous dribble, dribble, and a great crowd of narcs burst forth. In their midst was a towering dark shadow too terrible to describe. In its hand it held a huge black globe and on its chest was written in cruel runes, 'Villanova.'"

[Deleted]

Nov 19, 2011 18:52:26 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

"As Goodgulf stepped onto the bridge the passage echoed with an ominous dribble, dribble, and a great crowd of narcs burst forth. In their midst was a towering dark shadow too terrible to describe. In its hand it held a huge black globe and on its chest was written in cruel runes, 'Villanova.'"

Is that from "Bored of the Rings"? I'll admit it has been a long time since I've read it but it sounds like it was lifted straight out of the book. At any rate, it was quite amusing.

[kent]

The best that I can think of is:

Hot Black Mister Monster Man.

[aldarron]

Nov 19, 2011 4:03:50 GMT -6 @aher said:

"Balrog" is Sindarin for "demon of might." But it clearly has cognates with the two Hebrew words:

בעל ךע

I wonder if you are joking? Tolkien drew virtually exclusively on germanic, celtic, and Finno-ugric, attempting to revive northern cosmology for english speakers. The idea that he would, in a single instance, use Hebrew!! as a referent seems simply unbelievable.

Its good 'n all Aher if you enjoy making that association in your games, and there's prolly others who will like that approach too, but "clearly cognate" is, to be kind, something of a stretch.

[Deleted]

Nov 19, 2011 19:58:47 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

Nov 19, 2011 18:52:26 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

"As Goodgulf stepped onto the bridge the passage echoed with an ominous dribble, dribble, and a great crowd of narcs burst forth. In their midst was a towering dark shadow too terrible to describe. In its hand it held a huge black globe and on its chest was written in cruel runes, 'Villanova.'"

Is that from "Bored of the Rings"? I'll admit it has been a long time since I've read it but it sounds like it was lifted straight out of the book. At any rate, it was quite amusing.

"Aiee! A Ballhog!"

[aher]

Nov 19, 2011 20:37:31 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Nov 19, 2011 4:03:50 GMT -6 @aher said:

"Balrog" is Sindarin for "demon of might." But it clearly has cognates with the two Hebrew words:

בעל ךע

I wonder if you are joking? Tolkien drew virtually exclusively on germanic, celtic, and Finno-ugric, attempting to revive northern cosmology for english speakers. The idea that he would, in a single instance, use Hebrew!! as a referent seems simply unbelievable.

Its good 'n all Aher if you enjoy making that association in your games, and there's prolly others who will like that approach too, but "clearly cognate" is, to be kind, something of a stretch.

No joke actually. While he was by no means fluent in Hebrew, Tolkien did indeed study it, and explicitly based two Middle Earth languages on it: Khuzdûl and Adûnaic. So "Baal Raa" wouldn't be the only instance of a Hebrew-inspired word. Here's my justification:

I. Tolkien was not fluent with Hebrew, but when he translated the Book of Jonah from French to English, he consulted Hebrew lexicons and dictionaries. Source: Tolkien and the Study of His Sources: Critical Essays by Jason Fisher, books.google.com/books?id=98VQ3gHsVsMC&lpg=PP1&dq=Tolkien%20and%20the%20Study%20of%20His%20Sources%3A%20Critical%20Essays&pg=PA66#v=onepage&q=hebrew&f=false

II. Khuzdûl (Dwarven)

A. "Tolkien also commented of the Dwarves that 'their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic.'" Source: Wikipedia article on Khuzdul en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khuzdul

B. "Tolkien wrote that Dwarves reminded him of Jews and he employed Semitic phonemes in constructing their language." Source: J.R.R. Tolkien encyclopedia: scholarship and critical assessment by Michael D. C. Drout, books.google.com/books?id=B0loOBA3ejIC&lpg=PA556&ots=hhDAcJ6hYg&dq=Tolkien%20semitic&pg=PA556#v=onepage&q=Tolkien%20semitic&f=false

C. "When giving Dwarves their own language (Khuzdûl) Tolkien decided to create an analogue of a Semitic language influenced by Hebrew phonology...The Gimli-Legolas relationship has been seen as Tolkien's reply toward 'Gentile anti-Semitism and Jewish exclusiveness.'...Tolkien also elaborated on Jewish influence on his Dwarves in a letter: 'I do think of the Dwarves like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue...'" Source: Wikipedia article on Middle Earth Dwarves, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_%28Middle-earth%29

III. Adûnaic

In the second age, in Númenor, Sindarin was the literary language, while Adûnaic was the vernacular.

A. "Tolkien devised Adûnaic shortly after World War II. It was intended to have a 'faintly Semitic flavour' or style."

B. Like the Semitic languages of our own age, Adûnaic...

1. employs a system of triconsonantal word-bases, apparently adopted from Khuzdul at some point in the past (some bases have only two consonants)

2. is inflected for three numbers: Singular, dual and plural

3. has no true genitive

4. has "adverbial 'prepositional' elements": ô "from", ad, ada "to, towards", mâ "with", zê "at". [In Hebrew, "m-" means "through," "b-" means "with" or "in", "l-" means "to" or "towards," etc. Same structure, different phonemes.]

Source: Adûnaic - the vernacular of Númenor, www.uib.no/People/hnohf/adunaic.htm

Hope this is enough to convince some people at least of the possibility that the word "Balrog" may be based on the Hebrew two lexemes, "Baal" and "Raa."

[jacar]

Nov 19, 2011 17:55:03 GMT -6 premmy said:

I think it's high time jacar spoke up and actually explained WHY he "needs" another name for it. Because until he does so, the only answer he'll get out of me is "No, you don't. Call it a Balrog."

And high time is upon us! In case you missed the other threads, I am working through a re-write of Chainmail. It will be very close to the original. As "Balrog" (TM) is copyrighted material, I am looking for another name. This is not a commercial project. But still, I do not want to step on the toes of the Tolkien estate if I don't have to. So, it is best to simply rename the "Balrog" (TM).

The Hobbit is easy enough by making them Halfling. That name has been used over and over again in other no WotC products (commercial and free) so I can't think that WotC will come after me. In that particular case, it is probably covered under OGL anyway.

[premmy]

Nov 19, 2011 18:13:27 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

Does it really matter why? He just wants a little help from other folks. Most of us have reached a place where the inspiration just ran dry, sometimes an idea from another gamer can really free up the stuck "machinery" of the mind.

Let's try to keep this a place where gamers can share ideas in a friendly manner.

It DOES matter, as jacar's post above illustrates. Dodging copyright is one thing, and then Rolab or Balro or Fiery-Sword-and-Whip-Demon are perfectly good options.

On the other hand, for all we knew he MIGHT have needed it because he wanted his party to go up against one, he might have wanted to have an NPC talk about it, but if he had called it a "Balrog", his metagaming players would have immediately stocked up on just the right spells despite their characters never having heard of the things. In this case, the above examples would NOT have served the purpose of not letting the players know what's coming. So yes, it matters why. ;D

[foxroe]

You had best call it, "Sir"... ;D

My vote is for Gothrog if this is going to be a publicly available item. You'd probably need to get Matt's permission to use Baalroch (unless he considers it OGC).

[foxroe]

Or go with some tongue-in-cheek anagrams:

blargo
gorbal
orbgal
rolbag

[Deleted]

Nov 20, 2011 11:57:14 GMT -6 premmy said:

So yes, it matters why. ;D

Sophistry. The other posts in the thread demonstrated he didn't care if it sounded similar or not (Balrog versus Baalroch). All you really needed to know is that he needed a different name, and he told you that in his first post.

And whether that particular line of reasoning is enough for you or not, it certainly didn't justify your demanding of him what his reasons were for asking. Just to be clear, there is nothing wrong with asking for more information. It seemed demanding more before consenting to help a fellow gamer appeared rather discourteous. And, bluntly, your reasons justifying your demand are pretty thin sauce.

[jasmith]

Nov 20, 2011 12:00:40 GMT -6 foxroe said:

You had best call it, "Sir"... ;D

My vote is for Gothrog if this is going to be a publicly available item. You'd probably need to get Matt's permission to use Baalroch (unless he considers it OGC).

The whole of S&W, save for the Trademarks, art and Wine Dark Sea map added to the 4th printing of core, is OGC.

So, not being a lawyer, I can only say I don't see an issue if you want to use Matt's version and I'm fairly confident, that his intent was to make all that gaming goodness available for everyone's use, since that's what he did. Swell guy, that Mr. Finch. ;D

jacar - is your project using the OGL?

[aldarron]

[quote author=aher board=chainmail thread=6580 post=85273 time=1321775100
No joke actually. While he was by no means fluent in Hebrew, Tolkien did indeed study it, and explicitly based two Middle Earth languages on it: Khuzdûl and Adûnaic. So "Baal Raa" wouldn't be the only instance of a Hebrew-inspired word. Here's my justification:.....[/quote]

I'll be buggered. Never would I have thought dwarvish was related to hebrew.... Somehow that's just weird, but does explain the kh's.

Anyhow, the word balrog predates both of those languages, appearing in Tolkiens first constructed language, "gnomish" IIRC, created during WW1.

Honestly, I've always suspected the Balraug is cognate with OE Bealu (as in the word Baleful and meaning a wicked or injurious thing) + draug. (a kind of ghoul or undead). Just drop the pronunciation of u and d as often happens in blended words and Beal raug is a more likely fit for balrog than Baal raa, but i'm admittedly guessing.