Stats for a VERY large dog

[edsan]

Ngangmuru!

I'm expecting one of my player's character to aquire a dog in the foreseable future. A large one. A HUGE one in fact. Something that puts an Earth English Mastiff or Irish Wolfhound to shame by several dozens of pounds (let's say around 400lb as an adult).

I am trying to brainstorm it's Stats, now such a large canine is obviously not going to be a 1 HD terrier, but I'm afraid to over-inflate its awesomeness (I tend to do taht sometimes with personal beasties I write up).

Any one got any thoughts on HD, special abilities, Movement Rate, etc?

[jrients]

Who can it beat in combat? Who is the dog's equal? Would a fight with an ogre be a titantic struggle or a one-sided affair?

[badger2305]

Ngangmuru!

Ohe, if you are running Empire of the Petal Throne, then you might consider using the stats for the Hyahyu'u or the Renyu, and modifying to suit.

And dogs are called "Tlekku" or pl. "Tlekkuyal" (or so I think it would be in Tsolyani - mine's a little rusty).

[edsan]

Check this pic out: pub12.bravenet.com/photocenter/album.php?img=9140&usernum=1029611521

That was the largest dog that ever lived. I choose a pic where it is standing on its hind legs besides a man so you can get a good feel of just how huge it was.

The PC's dog will outweight it by about 75lb. It also smarter than a normal Earth dog, which may affect its fighting skills.

We don't have ogres on Tekumel but I would say any unarmoured human that comes against one of these will be pretty much f*cked unless they are a circus strongman or something. A group of 1 HD peasants armed with long spears might get very lucky and manage to skewer it before it gets the jump on them. Assuming they roll a couple of natural 20's

Using the rationale that this thing might just be the ogre-equivalent of canines looks like a good starting point. (i.e. ogres are huge brutish humans, this thing is a huge, brutish dog).

What are the stats for a D&D ogre? Is their height/weight listed anywhere?

jrients said:

Who can it beat in combat? Who is the dog's equal? Would a fight with an ogre be a titantic struggle or a one-sided affair?

[jrients]

I forgot where on the board I was! An OD&D ogre has roughly 4 hit dice and does 2 more points of damage per strike than a normal man. You could call it the equivalent of roughly four ordinary fighting men of no distinction. No dimensions are given for an ogre in the original rules. A wolf in OD&D is 2 hit dice, so 2 or 3 hit dice would be be the absolute bottom scale I'd look at for what you are wanting. I think 4 to 6 dice would be the upper limit.

Keep in mind I'm no EPT expert by any stretch. This is more me thinking how I would handle the situation were I needing such a beast in an OD&D game.

[Wothbora]

The Ready Ref Sheets by Judges Guild (on page 50) has several Canine varieties you could disseminate info from to create your dog. I don't have the stat handy for Dire Wolves, but that would probably be the best for what you are looking for.

Humid Continental	Wolf	AC:7	HD:1	MV:12
Subtropical	Hyena	AC:7	HD:1	MV:10
Semi-Arid	Dog	AC:6	HD:1/2	MV:10
Desert	Coyote	AC:8	HD:1	MV:8
Taiga	Fox	AC:4	HD:1	MV:24
Highland	Wolf	AC:7	HD:1	MV:16

[korgoth]

I always look at Moldvay when I am not sure how to stat something. Moldvay rates a 6' black bear as 4 HD, and a 9' grizzly bear as 5 HD. But a bear has a different structure than a dog, and one which I think gives the bear an advantage (it's not just mass but how you can use it).

I'd give the dog 4 HD. I would be inclined to rate its AC as 8 or maybe 7; dogs don't have an especially tough hide and although they can be quick they're hardly ninjas.

At 4 HD on the chart it will only do 1d6 to experienced warriors, but against regular schmoes it will bite for 2d6. It definitely takes a bite out of crime.

[crimhthanthegreat]

Here is something else to consider, and although this quote is from Wikipedia, I believe it to be accurate.

The Irish Wolfhound has been recorded as being exhibited in ancient Rome to some excitement, and mention is made that they so amazed and terrified the Romans that it was seen fit to only transport them in cages. There exist stories that in the arena, the original Wolfhound was the equal of a lion. It has also been shown that when hunting animals, the wolfhound would bite the neck and crush the spine, killing the creature.

Equal to a lion would probably be a good way to go for what you are looking for.

[casey777]

edsan said:

Ngangmuru!

I'm expecting one of my player's character to aquire a dog in the foreseable future. A large one. A HUGE one in fact.

<snip>

Any one got any thoughts on HD, special abilities, Movement Rate, etc?

Ngangmuru brujutle!

Hell Hound is AC 4, Move 12", HD 3-7, and bite for 1d6 damage. Drop the fire attack, think about keeping the stealthy aspect and the ability to detect hidden or invisible at 75% chance. For hit dice offhand either HD 3 or 2. (edit: after rereading thread, 3-5)

[casey777]

badger2305 said:

Ohe, if you are running Empire of the Petal Throne, then you might consider using the stats for the Hyahyu'u or the Renyu, and modifying to suit.

And dogs are called "Tlekku" or pl. "Tlekkuyal" (or so I think it would be in Tsolyani - mine's a little rusty).

Cha, Hyahyu'u, also known as "The Whooper", are like six legged wolves with spines, except they're bigger, longer & smarter than a wolf. EPT page 55. AC 4, Move 12", HD 3+3. Have a special dread of Pachi Lei, which may not apply to Terran-descent dogs.

Renyu, "The Loyal Follower", are Tekumel's uplifted canines. EPT page 55. AC 4, Move 12", HD 2. Perceive secret doors & traps 1-4 on 1d6 and can see in the dark.

[casey777]

jrients said:

Keep in mind I'm no EPT expert by any stretch. This is more me thinking how I would handle the situation were I needing such a beast in an OD&D game.

No worries, IMO EPT is still very much an OD&D game monster stat wise and pretty much power level.

Dogs still fare pretty well on Tekumel, partially due to being pack animals. They're all domesticated though, outside of the company of humans dogs don't last long on Tekumel, so there are no significant populations of feral dogs.

In contrast, cats are rarer (esp. in the Empire of the Petal Throne) & have camouflage coats. On Tekumel the "mouse" can hunt the cat! Tekumel common vermin includes spider analogues as large as a man. Cats are often considered lucky & can sense danger & the supernatural. There are Chlen-cart cats (like ship cats), legion mascot cats and Temple raised cats (like familiars). Most are about the size of a current housecat but some are more like a lynx or larger. There are also (giant) tigers. IIRC a northern "Ice Princess" rides on a snow tiger. If that's not official, it sure is so in my Tekumel campaign! ;D

(sidenote: The Tekumel Bestiary is great, almost statless, and well illustrated + has a very useful "Monster Nickname in English" for every entry)

[Epengar]

I suggest you start with the Hyahyu'u's stats, and add a little to HD and damage, and knock down the speed. You could plausibly put some real limits on the dog in terms of stamina and heat-tolerance. Unless it's built more like a giant Great Dane than a Giant Mastiff, it might have a problem with over-heating -- with all that extra body mass and proportionately less surface area to cool off with. This thing will be a panting, drooling monster all the time. In my Tekumel your PC would have a problem if she didn't have absolute control over the beast, the shamtla claims for slobber-spattered kilts, inappropriate snuffling, peeing on palanquins, etc. would be mighty frequent. Not to mention the cost of feeding the thing -- it would eat as much food as four men, but all of it would be meat...

[edsan]

Thanks for all your replies guys. I didn't know we had so many dog-lovers on the EPT forum ;D

All this is food for tought. The final stats will depend exactly on type of dog the player wants.

I'm still chewing the idea of wether there are any really weird domestic canines in my version of Tekumel. Maybe hairless dogs that sweat through their skin like humans? Fully adapted to the life in the hot southern area...


Oh, and as for controling the beast, the PC has both the Animal Training skill AND Zoic Domination spell. It's going to be the best-behaved dog ever!

Nice puppy...sit!

WOF!!!

Now...KILL!

RroargH! (animal runs into the distance and screams of agony cut the night's air)

[Epengar]

edsan said:

I'm still chewing the idea of wether there are any really weird domestic canines in my version of Tekumel. Maybe hairless dogs that sweat through their skin like humans? Fully adapted to the life in the hot southern area...

entirely plausible. One property of Tekumel is that nearly all the living organisms on the planet are artifacts one way or another. Brought there by humans or aliens, or created there. I forget what EPT says about whether the Hluss and Ssu evolved there or just colonized first, but everything after them is created, manipulated. Your dogs could have started as mild mannered beasts of burden in some pre-Time of Darkness performance art exhibit, with albino Tinaliya riding them. Then been tweaked into ravenous hounds from hell by the distorted and anxious minds of the Lords of the Latter Times. Then nearly exterminated in an energy weapons exchange, except for a small surviving population in a valley in the mountains east of Hundranu Rise which survived for milennia as herd dogs. Then "discovered" by some high-status types out treasure-hunting, and returned to be the hit of the party season in Sokatis, reduced to serving as hunting beasts and fighting in the Hirilakte for a few centuries after the fad passed. Or maybe they're fresh out of the vats at the City of Dlash, an old default pattern, not too popular, but always a demand for a few. Pretty much any property of the critter you want could be tweaked: wierd markings, unusual colored teeth, smarter, dumber, color vision, internal testicles, no tail, bony plates in the skin, retractable claws, whatever suits your purposes and fancy.

Oh, and as for controling the beast, the PC has both the Animal Training skill AND Zoic Domination spell. It's going to be the best-behaved dog ever!

Hah. And has it occurred to the player yet that she's not the only person in the city who can cast that spell...?

[casey777]

There's a good episode of Jeeves & Wooster that revolves around an Irish wolfhound. Very good for depicting justhowbig they can get.

Took a look at the AD&D1E MM which uses OD&D AC. More fodder.

Blink Dog is HD 4, Move: 12", and AC 5, Size medium (3' at shoulder). Damage is 1-6.
The Hell Hound is HD: 4-7, Move: 12" and AC 4, size medium. Damage from the bite is is 1-10. Surprise on 1-4 out of 6, are surprised on 1 out of 6 and locate hidden or invisible creatures is 50%.
Wolf:
Wolf - HD 2+2, Move 18", AC 7, Damage/Attack 2-5, Small
Dire Wolf (Worg) - HD 3+3 (4+4), Move 18", AC 6, Damage/Attack 2-8, Medium (Large)
Winter Wolf - HD 6, Move 18", AC 5, Damage/Attack 2-8, Large

[James Maliszewski]

epengar said:

I forget what EPT says about whether the Hluss and Ssu evolved there or just colonized first

Unless subsequent information from Professor Barker has suggested otherwise, I believe the Ssü and the Hlüss are both native to Tékumel, as are the Chürstalli (which may be related to the aforementioned races in much the way that apes are related to humans).

[casey777]

Started a new thread on this fork of the topic as IMO it's worthy of its own discussion.

[edsan]

epengar said:

Pretty much any property of the critter you want could be tweaked: wierd markings, unusual colored teeth, smarter, dumber, color vision, internal testicles, no tail, bony plates in the skin, retractable claws, whatever suits your purposes and fancy.

It's the first time i've read about "internal testicles" being a choice design feature of Genetic Altered Beings ;D

It would be bloody practical though...I still remember that football back in high school, d**n did it hurt!

epengar said:

Hah. And has it occurred to the player yet that she's not the only person in the city who can cast that spell...?

She has not even put togheter 2+2 and realised she has them both. I just noticed that yesterday.

The player is not a power-gamer, she wanted a doggie cause its her animal-totem, then I pointed out they are bigger and smarter on Tekumel THEN I made the joke about her getting a 400lb mastiff without realising she can actually get one; and now she does!

[Epengar]

edsan said:

It's the first time i've read about "internal testicles" being a choice design feature of Genetic Altered Beings ;D

iirc, there are some pack predators, maybe African wild dogs?, that go for the soft parts underneath of big herbivores as way to immobilize prey. They're relatively small predators, and it takes a bunch of them pull down a big antelope, or wildebeest, and they'll grab whatever part they can get...

The player is not a power-gamer, she wanted a doggie cause its her animal-totem, then I pointed out they are bigger and smarter on Tekumel THEN I made the joke about her getting a 400lb mastiff without realising she can actually get one; and now she does!

ah. well, good luck to her and you. That's going to be an interesting complication for play. If I was a Tsolyani road guard, or market constable, or soldier, and I encountered a nakome female with an animal that big and dangerous walking down the street, I'd feel a strong need to a) call for backup and then b) work with the team to remove that threat to civilization from my beat, or my city, or my empire...

[edsan]

epengar said:

ah. well, good luck to her and you. That's going to be an interesting complication for play. If I was a Tsolyani road guard, or market constable, or soldier, and I encountered a nakome female with an animal that big and dangerous walking down the street, I'd feel a strong need to a) call for backup and then b) work with the team to remove that threat to civilization from my beat, or my city, or my empire...

I'm not the kind of GM who hangs his players out to dry.

However, I won't stop them from getting a few yards of rope if that's their wish.