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Post by Finarvyn on Oct 30, 2011 20:08:39 GMT -6
I just saw "The Exorcist" in the theatre. Linda Blair was in attendance signing autographs and she gave a short talk about the movie.
The movie got me thinking about "Turn Undead."
In OD&D I get the impression that a cleric spots undead, shows himself, shouts something witty like "begone, undead" and they turn to dust. In the movie the process was a much slower, more ritualistic type of thing. Virtually useless in combat.
Curious as to what anyone thinks about Turn Undead. How do you do it, what is the process like?
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Post by talysman on Oct 30, 2011 20:11:07 GMT -6
Well, I've always imagined a "D" result being "turn to dust", but otherwise they're just turned aside. But yeah, I figure it's a command to depart or begone... especially once I notice that the turning table is based on the reaction table.
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Post by aldarron on Oct 30, 2011 20:20:20 GMT -6
Well, there's two things about the Exorcist to keep in mind. First is that a movie has to fill at least 90 minutes - second is that it's very Catholic. The Catholic belief is rich in ritual.
Protestant notions of demononlogy are very different arguing that a single word or two from the faithful is all that's needed to call on the divine power that drives away the evil. (hardly worth a short film)
All that's kinda moot though because I don't make a connection between undead and demon possesion. I think of it as the positive life affirming belief of the cleric that turns or destroys undead. They just can't handle it.
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capheind
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by capheind on Oct 31, 2011 0:17:04 GMT -6
I've played turning (as opposed to D) two different ways. In the first form the undead are so overwhelmed by the gods force as projected through the cleric that he'd claw his own mother to get out of the room. The other is simply that the same force simply makes it impossible for the undead to venture too close, they are held at bay. either way seems to work.
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Azafuse
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 245
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Post by Azafuse on Oct 31, 2011 3:26:04 GMT -6
Curious as to what anyone thinks about Turn Undead. How do you do it, what is the process like? Basically, Turn Undead shows a sort of morale crushing effect: in few words IMHO it is not so different from a Fear spell or using torches against wild animals: - Fear affects the target's mind with scary images, making him flee away.
- Flames affect the animal's survival instinct, making it flee away.
- Turn Undead affects, in a similar way, the unearthly/ungodly core of an undead, repelling it.
IMHO under this point of view they work pretty the same way. The D effect is just a magnification of what happens above: - an high level fear-based spell creates deadly illusions causing heart failure
- the animal gets engulfed by flames and dies roasted
- the undead's link with Prime Material is broken
Talking about Turn Undead as a ritual, the only edition able to manage it seems to be the 4E with Rituals and Skill Challenges (or at least those seem to be the best rules for something like that in almost 40 years of D&D history).
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rleduc
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 75
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Post by rleduc on Oct 31, 2011 6:01:14 GMT -6
Turning undead is a trope borrowed from vampire films, not demonic possession/exorcism. You hold up 'the cross' and the vampire is held at bay. I'm not sure where destruction entered the mix; maybe just a natural adjustment for a high level cleric turning low hit dice undead.
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3d6
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 62
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Post by 3d6 on Oct 31, 2011 6:10:13 GMT -6
Most of the time I imagine it as the sort of usual begone thing/holding them at bay. If turned (vs. D) then the undead try to flee, it there’s nowhere for them to go then cower in a corner (to be bypassed, shot full of arrows, burned, whatever). If it’s a relatively high level cleric and low HD undead (D), I like to present it almost like an Obi-Wan force-y thingy: just a slight glance or small hand gesture and BAM. Sometimes I do one offs, like recently: PCs enter area, pile of rubbish and bones, approaching within 10’ causes bones to assemble into donkey skeleton. If turned, then blasts itself back into a pile of bones, won’t reassemble until that cleric leaves room (if D then blasted out of existence). Also, there’s a zombie-like monster, the Malcornec, created from living beings by ancient technology and so not turnable.
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Post by Finarvyn on Oct 31, 2011 11:41:33 GMT -6
Turning undead is a trope borrowed from vampire films, not demonic possession/exorcism. You hold up 'the cross' and the vampire is held at bay. I'm not sure where destruction entered the mix; maybe just a natural adjustment for a high level cleric turning low hit dice undead. Yeah, I realized that after posting, that turning and exorcism would be very different.
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Post by Morandir on Oct 31, 2011 13:07:17 GMT -6
I've always thought of it as the Cleric projecting a "field" of holy power (pure divine energy from his/her patron) that forces undead back, or outright destroys them. Although honestly I've never really given all that much thought to it.
Since we're on the subject, I've thought before about making Turn Undead a generic ability for my cleric-less games. Anyone with a decent Charisma (your Cha -10 equaling Cleric level on the chart, so Cha 13 would turn as a Village Priest) could spend a round attempting it. There would be no automatic turns - all Ts and Ds would be replaced with 7s on the chart.
I'm still mulling it over. On the one hand, I like the idea that the ability won't go away completely. OTOH, I don't want every party member with a Cha above 10 whipping out a holy symbol every time they encounter undead.
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Post by talysman on Oct 31, 2011 14:56:48 GMT -6
Since we're on the subject, I've thought before about making Turn Undead a generic ability for my cleric-less games. Anyone with a decent Charisma (your Cha -10 equaling Cleric level on the chart, so Cha 13 would turn as a Village Priest) could spend a round attempting it. There would be no automatic turns - all Ts and Ds would be replaced with 7s on the chart. I'm still mulling it over. On the one hand, I like the idea that the ability won't go away completely. OTOH, I don't want every party member with a Cha above 10 whipping out a holy symbol every time they encounter undead. I've toyed with a similar idea, except that instead fo basing it on Charisma, I would just allow any character who joins a church and keeps its precepts the ability to turn undead as a "zero-level" cleric, with no chance of auto turning or destroying. But then, I've also proposed a way to ditch cleric spells and handle all cleric powers through the turn undead table...
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Post by Finarvyn on Oct 31, 2011 17:20:23 GMT -6
I like the CHA idea, but would suggest a higher number than 10. Make it hard to get.
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Post by llenlleawg on Jan 21, 2012 17:04:30 GMT -6
This seems the perfect topic for thread necromancy, eh?
Anyway, the best example of Turn Undead in classic literature comes in my mind from Robert Louis Stevenson's short story "Thrawn Janet." It's a great piece of literature, and a great chance to read in dialect. More to the point here (which is, I admit, a spoiler, so if you want to read the story, go do so first ....)
BEGIN SPOILER
... is that the young minister's housekeeper, whom the townsfolk were certain was in league with the devil, turns out to be a dead body animated by the devil himself. The minister is confronted by this unnatural horror and, facing certain death:
'Witch, beldame, devil!' he cried, 'I charge you, by the power of God, begone - if you be dead, to the grave - if you be d**ned, to hell.'
An' at that moment the Lord's ain hand out o' the Heevens struck the Horror whaur it stood; the auld, deid, desecrated corp o' the witch-wife, sae lang keepit frae the grave and hirsled round by deils, lowed up like a brunstane spunk and fell in ashes to the grund; the thunder followed, peal on dirling peal, the rairing rain upon the back o' that; and Mr. Soulis lowped through the garden hedge, and ran, wi' skelloch upon skelloch, for the clachan.
If anything shows what a D result looks like, surely it is this!
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Post by aldarron on Jan 21, 2012 21:33:25 GMT -6
This seems the perfect topic for thread necromancy, eh? Anyway, the best example of Turn Undead in classic literature comes in my mind from Robert Louis Stevenson's short story "Thrawn Janet." It's a great piece of literature, and a great chance to read in dialect. More to the point here (which is, I admit, a spoiler, so if you want to read the story, go do so first ....) BEGIN SPOILER ... is that the young minister's housekeeper, whom the townsfolk were certain was in league with the devil, turns out to be a dead body animated by the devil himself. The minister is confronted by this unnatural horror and, facing certain death: 'Witch, beldame, devil!' he cried, 'I charge you, by the power of God, begone - if you be dead, to the grave - if you be d**ned, to hell.'
An' at that moment the Lord's ain hand out o' the Heevens struck the Horror whaur it stood; the auld, deid, desecrated corp o' the witch-wife, sae lang keepit frae the grave and hirsled round by deils, lowed up like a brunstane spunk and fell in ashes to the grund; the thunder followed, peal on dirling peal, the rairing rain upon the back o' that; and Mr. Soulis lowped through the garden hedge, and ran, wi' skelloch upon skelloch, for the clachan.If anything shows what a D result looks like, surely it is this! Exalt!
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Post by Necropraxis on Feb 3, 2012 11:18:31 GMT -6
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