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Post by Falconer on Feb 5, 2008 16:44:52 GMT -6
Can someone please clarify the exact differences in editions of Empire of the Petal Throne? I don’t mean the later non-OD&D-like games. I mean what exactly is included in the various “reprints” of the “original,” including maps, page count, color/bw?
TSR (1975)
Gamescience (1983)
Different Worlds (1987)
Tita’s House of Games
PDFs?
Thanks.
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Post by badger2305 on Feb 5, 2008 17:32:16 GMT -6
Can someone please clarify the exact differences in editions of Empire of the Petal Throne? I don’t mean the later non-OD&D-like games. I mean what exactly is included in the various “reprints” of the “original,” including maps, page count, color/bw? TSR (1975) Gamescience (1983) Different Worlds (1987) Tita’s House of Games PDFs? Thanks. TSR: Empire of the Petal Throne, all editions were a boxed set. The boxed set had a picture of Bey Su on the cover, and the insides included: - One comb-bound rule book, 114pg.
- Two maps; one of Mu'ugalavya, Livyanu and Shenyu (Western Five Empires), the other of Yan Kor, Tsolyanu and western Salarvya (Eastern Five Empires)
- A map of Jakalla in semi-representational style
- Dice
- I seem to recall a set of ready reference charts, but that may be memory playing me false.
Gamescience: Swords and Glory, Vol. I and II. - Vol. I: Sourcebook; 136pp. book, one large map (includes same material as EPT Five Empires and then two similar scale maps further east, including all of Salarvya
- Vol. II: Player's Handbook; 240pp. book, ready reference sheets, dice
- Vol. III: Referee's Guide: never completed
Different Worlds: reprints - Empire of the Petal Throne: reprint of rules; map of Tsolyanu and Jakalla in B&W. Saddle stitched, pink cover (IIRC)
- Tekumel Sourcebook (Vol. I, S&G), broken into three sections, only first two printed (IIRC).
TOME: Gardasiyal- Boxed set: rule books
- Adventures on Tekumel, Introduction (includes character generation, very similar to S&G)
- Adventures on Tekumel, three different adventure books (all solo adventures)
- reprint of Book of Ebon Bindings
Tita's House of Games: reprints - completed the Different Worlds edition of the Tekumel Sourcebook
- reprints of other materials; Carl has been very good about the entire process of getting them complete.
Prof. Barker's World of Tekumel: PDFs - Empire of the Petal Throne: original rule book (COMPLETE; blank pages omitted from scan - I know, I did it myself)
- Empire of the Petal Throne maps
- various articles, many unpublished.
I would go to www.tekumel.com for more information about the publication history of Tekumel products. Hope this helps! |
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Post by Falconer on Feb 6, 2008 9:20:46 GMT -6
Hm, lots of info there. Thanks.
When I said Gamescience I was referring to their reprint of OEPT, though.
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Post by badger2305 on Feb 6, 2008 10:00:10 GMT -6
Hm, lots of info there. Thanks. When I said Gamescience I was referring to their reprint of OEPT, though. I could be forgetting, but I don't think Lou Zocchi (Gamescience) ever did a reprint of OEPT. |
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Post by Falconer on Feb 6, 2008 10:08:41 GMT -6
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Post by ffilz on Feb 6, 2008 10:45:34 GMT -6
Gamescience did publish Tekumel material as pointed to by Falconer, however, that material did not consist of an EPT reprint.
Frank
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Post by badger2305 on Feb 6, 2008 10:58:23 GMT -6
Yep, I know about all this; I think I have everything shown. And my name's on one (or more) of them. ;) Was there something specific you were looking for, Falconer? As far as I know, all of the reprints of OEPT have the same text, but vary as to the maps. |
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Post by bigjackbrass on Feb 6, 2008 13:30:59 GMT -6
The Different Worlds edition has a couple of minor differences to the original. The Illustration on page 16 of the original rulebook (I'm looking at the PDF version at the moment) showing the siege of Purdimál is absent, for instance, and of course there is an additional introduction in the DW book, written by Dave Arneson.
To the best of my knowledge there are no differences in the rules or body of the main text.
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Post by Falconer on Feb 6, 2008 22:35:26 GMT -6
Wha.... are you guys looking at the same pages as me? The one has:
“Empire of the Petal Throne: The World of Tekumel (Gamescience Edition) Gamescience's 1983 reprint of the original EPT rules. It includes a large B&W map of Jakalla. 1983 ... 96 pages + Poster Map of Jakalla ... Gamescience 10331”
The other one has:
“GS10331, Empire of the Petal Throne 2nd Edition
Author: M.A.R. Barker
Description:”
Anyway, it doesn’t really matter to me whether or not Gamescience did an EPT reprint. ;-) All I really want to know is, if I bought the Tika’s HOG reprint, how much of the original TSR content would I then possess? It sounds like I would have the same rulebook. Are any of the maps on Tika’s site identical or similar to the TSR maps? And was there anything else in the TSR set other than the rulebook and the maps that I would be missing? Thanks.
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Post by Epengar on Feb 6, 2008 23:00:22 GMT -6
Anyway, it doesn’t really matter to me whether or not Gamescience did an EPT reprint. ;-) All I really want to know is, if I bought the Tika’s HOG reprint, how much of the original TSR content would I then possess? It sounds like I would have the same rulebook. Are any of the maps on Tika’s site identical or similar to the TSR maps? And was there anything else in the TSR set other than the rulebook and the maps that I would be missing? Thanks. I think you would have the same rulebook. I haven't seen the original EPT map of the Empire, but my understanding is that the Swords & Glory Tekumel Maps are larger and more detailed. Tita's doesn't have the older TSR maps, but they do have the S&G maps. I don't think you'd be missing anything else. |
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casey777
Level 4 Theurgist
Herder of Chlen
Posts: 102 
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Post by casey777 on Feb 7, 2008 21:57:13 GMT -6
The EPT PDF at DriveThruRPG etc. has several reference sheets in the core PDF, but since I don't have either the original TSR boxed set or the reprints I don't know if this was a separate pamphlet ala OD&D boxed set or not. They sell a separate map of the Jakalla map and another of the world maps. Since it seems to be of the TSR set it only has the TSR Gygax introduction but has a page or two by the PDF people.
The S&G maps are markedly better and are the standard Tekumel map reference. The Tekumel sourcebook and other sources such as the North-West Frontier Gazetteer refer to the S&G maps. I'm fairly certain Tita's had reprints of the EPT maps for sale (ran out stock in the last several years?). Maybe the reprint of the book has the maps in it (I don't have this so don't know)?
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Post by thorswulf on Feb 7, 2008 22:45:16 GMT -6
For what it's worth, the first set of these rules I ever owned was the Gamescience edition. It is slightly different than the original rulebook, as it has a cardstock covern not the fine paper one the TSR edition came with. Other than that it is the same thing. The Maps are B&W only in the Gamescience edition and came in a plastic bag.
By the way the DF tekumel journal did have a third volume, just not as many published as volume I &II, I guess. They pop up at Nobleknight.com from time to time.
A word of warning: The Swords and Glory books have weak bindings! My copies have loose covers!
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Post by badger2305 on Feb 8, 2008 7:59:13 GMT -6
The EPT PDF at DriveThruRPG etc. has several reference sheets in the core PDF, but since I don't have either the original TSR boxed set or the reprints I don't know if this was a separate pamphlet ala OD&D boxed set or not. They sell a separate map of the Jakalla map and another of the world maps. Since it seems to be of the TSR set it only has the TSR Gygax introduction but has a page or two by the PDF people. There were reference sheets! I wasn't imagining them! I did have them when I scanned them in for the PDF. To be clear - the reference sheets were a separate pamphlet, in the boxed set, like OD&D. I had just spaced that they existed. |
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Post by Brickman on Feb 22, 2008 12:27:28 GMT -6
Sorry for my ignorance guys... been looking for this info for a long time but - badger2305, or anyone in the know, could you please correlate the various editions with the game systems that supported them?
Did all of these editions use TSR's D&D rules? Which set of rules? Which ones used other game systems?
TSR: Empire of the Petal Throne (which version of D&D?)
Gamescience: Swords and Glory, Vol. I and II. (what game system?)
Different Worlds: reprints (what game system?)
TOME: Gardasiyal (what game system?)
Tita's House of Games: reprints (what game system?)
Prof. Barker's World of Tekumel: PDFs (what game system?)
Tekumel: EPT (is this the TriSystem?)
Thank you guys!
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bert
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 138
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Post by bert on Feb 22, 2008 13:14:29 GMT -6
Sorry for my ignorance guys... been looking for this info for a long time but - badger2305, or anyone in the know, could you please correlate the various editions with the game systems that supported them? Did all of these editions use TSR's D&D rules? Which set of rules? Which ones used other game systems? None actually used D&D rules, all used their own rulesets, or were background books with no rules or stats. The rules had various drawbacks and many unofficial fan written adpaptations of other systmes such as RQ and GURPs litter the web. TSR: Empire of the Petal Throne: Own system, loosely based on OD&D Gamescience: Swords and Glory, Vol. I - system free background book Gamescience: Swords and Glory, Vol. II - the Swords and Glory rules, a thing unto itself, very complex and never finished Different Worlds: reprints - Reprints of rules free Swords and Glory background book in three mini volumes. TOME: Gardasiyal - again, its own system, 'simplified' version of Sword and Glory - still pretty complex though Tita's House of Games: reprints - All systems mentioned above Prof. Barker's World of Tekumel: PDFs - None, background info only Tekumel: EPT - very modified Tri-Stat, to the point of being a set of rules unto itself Summary: OEPT - character classes, XP points, levels, Hit Dice, diced d100 stats, all or nothing skill system, fire and forget magic. S&G - dunno, never seen Vol II Gadarasiyal - Skills based with no set charater classes but heavy railroading of skill choice through career options, used XP of a sort, had levels for sorcerors, d100 based stats and skills, used unique 'HBS' system for hit points and damage, mana point magic. V. Time consuming character creation based on solo-adventure style play through of PCs formative years. T:EPT - 6 stats, 1-10 range, point buy system, skill + stat d10 roll under, many combat options, mana point magic, point buy special and magic item design. |
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Post by Brickman on Feb 22, 2008 14:52:33 GMT -6
Thanks bert. I've been planning on picking up one of these editions for the first time in my life. It looks like the TSR edition would require the least tweaking but T:EPT (Tekumel:EPT right? ) has the most background material?
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bert
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 138
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Post by bert on Feb 22, 2008 19:46:26 GMT -6
No the best background material is in Swords and Glory vol I (or the 3 volume Different Worlds reprint of same) plus, for the real deep gen on religion, Mitlanyal vols 1 +2, and the Book of Ebon Bindings, which various critics have deemed to be among the best RPG supplements ever published. And the various MARB netbooks will add to this - best ones are Deeds of the Ever Glorious for an in depth look at the Tsolyani military and The Ever-Glorious Empire: Éngsvan hla Gánga for the comparatively recent history. That said, the OEPT book or the T:EPT book will give you enough info to start playing in aTekumel, especially when combined with online stuff from www.tekumel.com/ and other websites. |
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Post by badger2305 on Feb 22, 2008 20:31:52 GMT -6
Pretty much what Bert said. If you want a match with OD&D, the closest you get is original Empire of the Petal Throne.
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casey777
Level 4 Theurgist
Herder of Chlen
Posts: 102
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Post by casey777 on Feb 23, 2008 22:03:17 GMT -6
Just a note that T:EPT is derived from the BESM (2nd edition) version of Tri-Stat. It predates Tri-Stat dX. Thanks bert. I've been planning on picking up one of these editions for the first time in my life. It looks like the TSR edition would require the least tweaking but T:EPT (Tekumel:EPT right? ) has the most background material? EPT is very gameable, S&G has the core background & the fullest published spell list, Gard. has a more "up to date" treasure charts, and T:EPT has a very digestable subset of the background + updates to just beyond the recent civil war. for the real deep gen on religion, Mitlanyal vols 1 +2, and the Book of Ebon Bindings, which various critics have deemed to be among the best RPG supplements ever published. While Mitlanyal is nominally about the religion of the Empire of the Petal Throne, the coverage is such that it really brings the culture as a whole into focus in a digestible way. It also has sample followers & secret societies. The two volume version currently available has a very good writeup of the civil war and sample avatars of the gods. Not as gonzo cool as BoEB but very useful. |
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Post by ffilz on Feb 25, 2008 15:40:28 GMT -6
In addition to these, DW also did a reprint of the original EPT rules.
Tita's has reprinted the DW reprint (and I think it's also available in PDF).
Frank
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Post by redpriest on Apr 6, 2008 20:36:18 GMT -6
<grabs both sides of head to stop spinning>
In plain, unequivocal English please, does Tita's = TSR's, textually? If not, are the differences significant?
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Post by badger2305 on Apr 6, 2008 21:15:25 GMT -6
As far as I know, concerning Empire of the Petal Throne, they are all the same, textually. Keep in mind that Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne, from Guardians of Order, is a completely different set of rules, despite the very similar name.
There are a couple of minor differences; one of the editions has a citizenship document in it (can't recall which one). But the text material for rules is the same, between original TSR printing, DW reprint, Tita's reprint, and the PDF version.
If I'm wrong about this in some major way, somebody tell me, because I'm one of the people who is charged with making sure about this stuff.
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Post by badger2305 on Apr 6, 2008 21:38:19 GMT -6
Role-Playing Games for Tekumel and related materials:| TSR or Imperium Games | Gamescience | TOME | Different Worlds | Tita's | PDF | | Empire of the Petal Throne (2 large maps, map of Jakalla, reference sheets) | -- | -- | reprint (lacks large maps; Jakalla map insert) | (stocks DW edition) | reprint of original TSR edition; maps separate | | -- | S&G Vol. I (included 1 large map, 2 %ile dice) | -- | reprint (3 vol.; did 1 & 2 - Tsolyanu provinces map in one) | reprint of DW (completed all 3) and reprint of original Gamescience edition (in one volume) | (forthcoming) | | -- | S&G Vol. II | -- | -- | reprint | (forthcoming) | | -- | S&G Vol. III (not completed) | -- | -- | -- | -- | | -- | -- | Gardasiyal (somewhat modified and simplified version of S&G; included material for S&G Vol. III) | -- | (stocks) | -- | | -- | -- | Adventures on Tekumel, Vol. 1 | -- | (stocks) | (forthcoming?) | | -- | -- | Adventures on Tekumel, Vol. II, parts 1-3 | -- | (stocks) | (forthcoming?) | | Book of Ebon Bindings | -- | reprint (larger format) | -- | (stocks TOME edition) | (forthcoming) | | -- | -- | Tekumel Bestiary | -- | (stocks) | (forthcoming) |
This is all largely done from memory, but I believe is mostly accurate. Please pass corrections on to me; I'll make changes as people spot them. (Epengar, are you reading?  ) Miniatures rules for Tekumel:| TSR | Imperium Games | Tekumel Games | | Legions of the Petal Throne | Missum! | Qadardalikoi |
Some additional notes: - Tekumel Games produced the Journal of Tekumel Affairs, the Imperial Military Journal, and the Imperial Courier. In addition, there were two modules produced: A Jakallan Intrigue and The Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo.
- Tirikelu is a completely fan-produced Tekumel game, by Dave Morris, and is not "canonical."
- Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne, is an authorized Tekumel RPG, based on the Guardians of Order Tri-Stat system, and produced by them. Modification: It used to be available as a PDF.
- Mitlanyal is a complete guide to Pavar's Pantheon. It was printed as a pre-release version and then as a two volume set from Zottola Publishing. Zottola Publishing also publishes Prof. Barker's novels.
- A considerable number of articles and publications are available from www.Drivethrurpg.com / www.rpgnow.com as PDF files.
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jjarvis
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 278
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Post by jjarvis on Apr 7, 2008 5:06:49 GMT -6
[/li][li] Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne, is an authorized Tekumel RPG, based on the Guardians of Order Tri-Stat system, and produced by them. It is available as a PDF. [/quote] WHERE? |
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Post by badger2305 on Apr 7, 2008 7:01:40 GMT -6
[/li][li] Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne, is an authorized Tekumel RPG, based on the Guardians of Order Tri-Stat system, and produced by them. It is available as a PDF. [/quote] WHERE? [/quote] It used to be available at Drivethruprg.com but it appears to be gone now. Not sure why. I'll have to change that. Sorry! |
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Post by redpriest on Apr 7, 2008 8:17:44 GMT -6
Bless you, badger. I think my thick-skulled encased pea-brain finally gets it. Thanks!
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jjarvis
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 278
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Post by jjarvis on Apr 7, 2008 12:28:27 GMT -6
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Post by badger2305 on Apr 7, 2008 13:54:41 GMT -6
My deepest apologies. PM me if you have specific questions.
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Post by Epengar on Apr 16, 2008 8:42:44 GMT -6
I don't know why sales of the pdf of Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne were ended, but I guess is that it has something to do with the copyright owners' intentions of finding a new publisher for it. The place to ask about it is here: games.groups.yahoo.com/group/tekumelrpg/this group is dedicated specifically to the T:EPT game. It should not be confused with the more active open group, on which any Tekumel topics are fair game: games.groups.yahoo.com/group/tekumel/ |
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