Kelewan (Tsurani)

[Falconer]

Is anyone else out there a fan of the Riftwar Saga and the Empire Trilogy by Raymond E. Feist and Janny Wurts?

It is the tale of two worlds (Midkemia and Kelewan) at war with each other. I have always been intrigued by the fact that, quite undisguised, the two worlds are D&D’s Middle-earthlike world and EPT’s Tékumel.

I always particularly liked the parts on Kelewan. I wonder how it would work as a setting rather than Tékumel per se. One advantage may be that the novels are very easy to get into, and the world is not THAT strange.

On the other hand, I have not (yet) read Barker’s novels. I may well find them just as easily accessible to read.

Anyway, any thoughts? Regards.

[greentongue]

I read and liked the Empire Trilogy .

I hear it is a very sore spot with the Professor.
=

[Falconer]

Heheh. It is interesting to note Feist’s thoughts on the subject. Regards.

[badger2305]

falconer said:

Heheh. It is interesting to note Feist’s thoughts on the subject. Regards.

I'm in the curious position of being friends with both Prof. Barker and Joel Rosenberg. There are some subjects that, by mutual agreement, I do not bring up with either of them.

[badger2305]

greentongue said:

I read and liked the Empire Trilogy .

I hear it is a very sore spot with the Professor.
=

(sigh) It is. And, for what it's worth, Prof. Barker has a point. Despite what Feist has written elsewhere, the fact remains that a cordial acknowledgment of original inspiration would have been the right thing to do, and this did not happen. I'm not going to go further into this, save to say that it does indeed make Prof. Barker very upset.

[edsan]

Well, my 1st contact with Riftswar was after playing the old "Betrayal at Krondor" PC game. I had no idea there was a line of novels back then.

Later I got to know Tekumel, read the Prof. Barker's novels and eventualy learned about the "bad water under the bridge" between the two settings.

Now, not being one to just take for granted the negative hearsay I get about something I have had not contact with, I made it a point of honour to buy and read Raymond's novels before passing any judgement.

So I did just that.

My conclusions? (If you are a Riftwar fan you might want to sit down now...)


*-*-* ALERT --- SARCASM MODE ON *-*-*


In my humble opinion, for what little it may be worth, Riftwar is pure crud. I considered buying the novel a waste of my money, reading it a waster of my time and mourned for the trees chopped down for the paper it was printed on.

Riftwar failed on all accounts I use to measure if a fantasy tale is good or not with really, really bad grades (except maybe on the size of the volume).

I am not going to itemise precisely what I disliked the most about it, I have better things to do with my time and having read that stinking pile of goo years ago, my mind has blocked out most of the details anway (and fortunately too). I only recall (shuddering as I do so) being baffled at the senseless plot, annoyed at truckloads of character develoment for a certain silly personage who miraculously survived certain doom(tm) or had genial deux-ex-machina insights just to be quietly killed between chapters.

And yes, I think Mr Feist is a hack, or a plagiarist if you will, of not only Prof. Barker but also of Tolkien. To be fair we must say that 90%+ of all fantasy written since the 2nd half of the 20th century is guilty on the second account. Also, Mr Feist's and associates had some very assinine attitudes (unless someone else had been posting on the net under their names back then). This left a lot of sore spots and open wounds. Be ye forewarned if you wish to bring these matters in Tekumel (or Riftwars) forums.

But not all is gloom and doom. My story with Riftwar does have a happy ending. I was able to sell the book to a friend of mind renowned for his appaling tastes (he liked the Marvel vs. D.C. crossover for pete's sake!) and thus got my money back. And I also found warm confort in learning two things:

1) It is possible, in this world we live in, to be a commercialy sucessful fantasy writter even if you have the talent of a brain-dead chimpanzee strapped to an electroshock machine. Thus, there is hope even I one day may write something and get paid for it regardless of how awful it may be.

2) That Prof. Barker's originality, talent, imagination, cultural level and civility dwarf Mr Feist's as much as a NBA player stands tall over a tortoise...if not more.


*-*-* SARCASM MODE OFF *-*-*


Seriously now, if you want to read Barker's novels go ahead. I quite enjoyed them; others might think they suck, c'est la vie. It all comes down to preference and taste (or lack of it). There are a couple of small samples of two of his novels at www.zotpub.com/
they might give you an insight into his writting style. I liked the "Death of Kings" scene; it got me itching to read the whole book.

[Finarvyn]

This has been an interesting thread so far, mostly because this is the first I've ever heard of the bad feelings (or even the fact that the Riftwar books were inspired at all by EPT). I've never read the books, and I think my wife has read them but she's not "into" EPT and thus wouldn't have made a connection.

It does make me curious enough to play with google and visit my local used book store soon just to take a peek at these books. On the other hand, if Edsan is to be believed, I haven't missed much. :-(

[edsan]

admin said:

It does make me curious enough to play with google and visit my local used book store soon just to take a peek at these books. On the other hand, if Edsan is to be believed, I haven't missed much. :-(

Like i said; tastes vary. Two of our colleagues on this thread apparently are quite fond of it.

I got some fairly strong warnings against reading it from a couple of friends back then but decided to give it a try and make my own mind up.

In hindsight, I don't regret having read Riftwar, it saved me the trouble of bothering to read the other Kelewan/Tsurani novels...or anything else by Raymond Feist...ever.
The same way I don't regret having read Mists of Avalon, even if I found it insulting both as a male and an afficionado of Arthurian Lore that has read the "original" centuries-old versions of the story. Likewise, it saved me the bother of ever picking up another Marion Z Bradley book...ever, *and* reasured my mind those cute, sighing, goth-wannabe young women at Uni had no idea whatsoever what they where talking about when they claimed MZB "iz the best fantasy author eva'r!"

That's just me. I can be a pretty sarcastic and elitist bastard when I want to ;-) but I admit it and live by my convictions.

I believe the Tsolyani refer to it as "Noble Action".


*-*-* Alert --- Toxic Sarcasm Atmosphere Detected *-*-*

And save your money. I'm sure a friend of yours has a copy of Riftwar lying around somewhere you can borrow, or check your local library. If you still cant get it for free just steal a copy when the vendor's not looking and use your hard-earned bucks to save for your pension.

*-*-* Relief Routine Engaged --- Sarcasm Mode Terminated *-*-*

[Falconer]

Okay, okay... For what it’s worth, I read Magician as a young lad, and the whole thing about the boy who turns into a dragon warrior and marries the elf queen was pretty sexy to me then. Would it be if I read it now for the first time? Probably not. I’ve tried to read some of his later stuff as an adult and found it pure crap.

The Empire Trilogy was some of his best work, though. Probably thanks to his co-author, I suppose. I don’t know.

Anyway, the dispute between the authors thing is exciting, but hardly relevant. Nevertheless, plainly nobody has any real thoughts on running a Tsurani campaign. That’s okay. ;-) Regards.

[greentongue]

Nevertheless, plainly nobody has any real thoughts on running a Tsurani campaign.

I have thoughts on it and have thought of it.

To me, it seems like it would be as restrictive as a current game of EPT. That unless the players a had a strong hold on the setting or the GM was lax to the point of not being true to the setting, it would be more struggle than fun.

Any setting where you need to be "On Top" to have any real freedom of action, and even that is prescribed with formalities, takes special players.

Not to say it wouldn't be fun with those special players, just that it would be hard to find them. IMHO
=

[casey777]

I view the Riftwar et al books as examples that a "different" setting such as Tekumel doesn't have to be a difficult setting nor is it impossible to game. Also I don't think Feist set out to ripoff Tekumel or Barker. I liked the first two trilogies back in the day but had tired of it before the Empire series, which I should read sometime. Entertaining for what they are, I just have different tastes in fantasy fiction these days.

I have used the novels as bridges to gaming in Tekumel. "Read the Riftwar books? Right, those guys are kinda like the Tsoylanu except-" And bringing a group of regular D&D types into Tekumel via a rift could be a fun way to start a campaign!

Honestly, if a Tekumel novel had come out before EPT I don't think it'd be an issue at all. And sometimes I wish that had been the case.

[Falconer]

Right! The rift is a cool idea. What if your nice normal D&D world with its nice normal D&D characters suddenly got invaded by folks from EPT? Could be fun.

If Man of Gold is a good read, it might be neat to have the players all read it before launching into a campaign. Homebrew worlds are fun, but right now I’m all about running games in literary worlds with which the players are already familiar. Whether it be Middle-earth, Narnia, Hyborean Age, 1920’s Lovecraft Country/Dreamlands, Star Wars, or Barsoom—and even among those some are more accessible than others, depending on your “audience.” You can put the players face-to-face with Mordenkainen and explain to them that their characters have heard of him and would feel fear and awe. Or you can put the players face-to-face with Saruman and just watch their faces! So I wonder if the EPT novels are capable of making an impression in their own right. Regards.

[greentongue]

I think THIS is one of the big blocks to people creating/running "Their Own Version". Because of the hate generated by Kelewan being published, a lot of people avoid anything non-canon. Any non-canon seems to attract detractors and suppresses creativity as well as growth in alternate visions of the game setting.
=

[Deleted]

Woo, necro from hell. I am a Midkemian apologist, I guess, the novels being some of the absolute worst fantasy out there -
and yet, I read them with a strange glow in my eyes, and if you ask me, the Princes of Krondor books are pretty well done.

As to the connection to Tekumel, hell, it's as blatant as a copycat will ever come to be, and it could have - should have!!! -
been handled way better by Feist, who is, after all, more than a little bit indebted to quite a couple of people in the industry.

Then again, Feist is also important for our hobby, because he is the last non-TSR D&D writer left who enjoys even moderate success.
Midkemia is fascinating precisely because Feist is so notoriously unimaginative; he remains so btb-oldschool that the books are even
oddly interesting from a gamer's perspective, if nothing else.