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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2011 8:38:29 GMT -6
Ok, I started playing AD&D in 2006. This was my first encounter ever with pnp games and I was quite impressed. From there I went on to try 3.5 and even had a brush with 4th. I always liked AD&D best for its classic feel. Just recently I learned about OD&D, that there was something before AD&D. I've been doing quite a bit of reading up, with the hope of starting a campaign. However, I am a bit lost. What is the difference between the three volumes (Men and Magic etc..) and the Basic, Expert, and Master Rules? How does the Rules cyclopedia play into this? I'm sorry if this is not the right place to ask this question, or if it's been asked before.
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Post by Mushgnome on Aug 28, 2011 8:47:16 GMT -6
OD&D (aka the "three books plus supplements") is a separate game from basic/expert/master/rules cyclopedia. The three core books are quite an interesting game; if you add the Greyhawk and Blackmoor supplements then it begins to resemble AD&D.
Check it out if you can find a copy at a reasonable price... if not you can read Sword & Wizardry Whitebox which is a modern "clone" of the OD&D rules.
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Post by bluskreem on Aug 28, 2011 9:19:18 GMT -6
the Three books (OD&D) were the first edition of the game. This game is where it all started. Notable features include a references to Chainmail rules, three core classes (fighter, Cleric, and Magic User) and D6 HD.
Next came Holmes basic, which was kind of a reedited OD&D that covered levels 1-3 and included the thief as a core class. Notable features include Dexterity based initiative, and a removal from Chainmail rules.
After that came BX, or Moldvay. This version was simplified from OD&D in many ways. Notable features include Elf, Dwarf and Halfling as classes, and lack of multiple attacks.
Then came BECMI (Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, and Imortal rules.) This edition took the basic frame work of BX and expanded it. Characters could advance to level 36, build kingdoms, manage armies, and eventually become deities. Notable features include skills, and weapon specialization (which are kind of analogous to 3rd ed's feats, but not exactly,) and being explicitly tied to the Mystara setting.
The rules Cyclopedia was a compilation of BECMi, and contained most of the same material in a single book.
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Post by badger2305 on Aug 28, 2011 9:25:49 GMT -6
Ok, I started playing AD&D in 2006. This was my first encounter ever with pnp games and I was quite impressed. From there I went on to try 3.5 and even had a brush with 4th. I always liked AD&D best for its classic feel. Just recently I learned about OD&D, that there was something before AD&D. I've been doing quite a bit of reading up, with the hope of starting a campaign. However, I am a bit lost. What is the difference between the three volumes (Men and Magic etc..) and the Basic, Expert, and Master Rules? How does the Rules cyclopedia play into this? I'm sorry if this is not the right place to ask this question, or if it's been asked before. Nope, this is a decent question! The quick answer is that it is mostly a matter of successive editions. What I'm about to offer is an approximation, and others might quibble or dispute the exact placement, but the overall relationship should be generally acceptable. Chainmail Miniatures rules with a fantasy supplement | Original Dungeons & Dragons (3 booklets: Men & Magic, Monsters & Treasure, Underground & Wilderness Adventures) | Supplement 1: Greyhawk (Introduces thieves, expands monsters and magic) | |------------------------------------------------------------| Supplement 2: Blackmoor..................................Holmes Basic D&D (introduces monks & assassins,...........................(bundles together OD&D's underwater monsters and adventure,.......................3 booklets & parts of Greyhawk) and Temple of the Frog)......................................| |............................................................| Supplement 3: Eldritch Wizardry..............................| (introduces druids, artifacts)...............................| | Supplement 4: Gods, Demi-Gods, and Heroes....................| (Gods and mythologies).......................................| | AD&D (1st Edition).......................................Moldvay Basic/Expert D&D (MM, PHB, DMG)...........................................(revises Holmes, provides higher levels) |............................................................| | AD&D ("1.5 Edition").....................................Mentzer BECMI D&D (adds Unearthed Arcana, Survival Guides).................(Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, Immortal) |............................................................| | AD&D (2nd Edition).......................................D&D Rules Cyclopedia | | | ....
...so as you can see, there were two main threads of D&D development. However, distinguishing between the two becomes a matter of minutiae over time - held apart, the two games have sufficiently different mechanics to be distinguishable from each other. However, in actual play, it is usually not very difficult to "port" items, characters, and adventures from one to the other. It is also the case that, over time, "AD&D" was associated with "by-the-book" tournament-oriented game play, while "D&D" was associated with more open, looser interpretation. This was partly a matter of intent, and partly a matter of which game players got used to playing. But this distinction is very fuzzy and not clear-cut at all. (If I've gotten my chart wrong, others please chime in!)
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Post by darkling on Aug 28, 2011 9:45:18 GMT -6
This is a great place to ask that question. And welcome, btw.
As badger2305 has just laid out in that awesome chart there are two broad lines of products besides AD&D: OD&D (what we often refer to as the "LBB" or "Little Brown Books") and its supplements and revisions; and what tends to be called BECMI D&D, Basic D&D, or sometimes just D&D without the advanced prefix.
They are two separate games and each definitely have their merits. I will say that BECMI D&D is a lot easier to get into than jumping straight for the LBB. Especially if you go the Rules Cyclopedia route. For my money, the RC is basically the single most well put together and easy to use set of tabletop gaming rules ever published (for a game of its complexity, of course), and modern publishers could learn a lot by looking at that book. The LBB and their supplements on the other hand are a bit more difficult to decipher, although you've pretty much stumbled upon the best place to get help & advice if you run into problems.
The trick with tabletop gaming is to find the game what works best for your group and then tweak it till it is perfect (for instance I tend to run games with the first three LBB but without the supplements and a nice dose of houserules). So my advice is to play around and experiment with different versions if you can!
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Post by murquhart72 on Aug 28, 2011 12:44:00 GMT -6
Also track down and read Philotomy's Musings. It's an excellent supplement of essays that really explain the wheres and why-fores of OD&D as well as giving great advice on how to start/run a game.
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Post by Zenopus on Aug 28, 2011 12:51:55 GMT -6
Chainmail Miniatures rules with a fantasy supplement | Original Dungeons & Dragons (3 booklets: Men & Magic, Monsters & Treasure, Underground & Wilderness Adventures) | Supplement 1: Greyhawk (Introduces thieves, expands monsters and magic) | |------------------------------------------------------------| Supplement 2: Blackmoor..................................Holmes Basic D&D (introduces monks & assassins,...........................(bundles together OD&D's underwater monsters and adventure,.......................3 booklets & parts of Greyhawk) and Temple of the Frog)......................................| |............................................................| Supplement 3: Eldritch Wizardry..............................| (introduces druids, artifacts)...............................| | Supplement 4: Gods, Demi-Gods, and Heroes....................| (Gods and mythologies).......................................| | AD&D (1st Edition).......................................Moldvay Basic/Expert D&D (MM, PHB, DMG)...........................................(revises Holmes, provides higher levels) |............................................................| | AD&D ("1.5 Edition").....................................Mentzer BECMI D&D (adds Unearthed Arcana, Survival Guides).................(Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, Immortal) |............................................................| | AD&D (2nd Edition).......................................D&D Rules Cyclopedia | | | ....
(If I've gotten my chart wrong, others please chime in!) Awesome chart, badger. Very old-school looking. I personally would drop Holmes down a little farther on the right since it came out after all of the supplements. I can understand why you put it where you did because it mostly uses OD&D + Greyhawk, but that makes it look like a contemporary of the Blackmoor supplement. It does contain brief references to a lot of material from those other supplements.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2011 3:41:42 GMT -6
Thanks guys! Next question. How feasible would it be to run a brown book game with the BECMI experience system? I've been running AD&D games for a while now, and I have one going. I usually keep it a lot simpler than AD&D says it should be. My games are effectively very loosely ruled and the books are simply references. I really like the simplicity of brown book OD&D, but it doesn't contain much in the way of leveling up as far as I can tell. (I've only briefly glanced through it, so I likely missed something.)
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 29, 2011 4:31:05 GMT -6
Thanks guys! Next question. How feasible would it be to run a brown book game with the BECMI experience system? I'd have to go back to look at BECMI, but if the XP needed to level up are similar to those in the brown books, I'd say that it would be easy to do! I have Mentzer Basic handy and here's what I see: Cleric = 0, 1500, 3000 Fighter = 0, 2000, 4000 Magic-user = 0, 2500, 5000 So far those match Men & Magic exactly. I'd say it should work just fine!
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Post by darkling on Aug 29, 2011 11:25:26 GMT -6
Just checked my RC and unless I am missing something the BECMI experience system is just an expanded version of the LBB (plus I think Greyhawk?) experience system. It provides a few clarifications and introduces things like XP for roleplaying, quests, and extraordinary actions; but the basic XP needed to level, XP derived from treasure, and XP derived from monsters are pretty much the same. So I think a BECMI character would level a little faster than an LBB character, but since usually characters can only gain one level per adventure the difference may prove to be minor.
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