Korgoth vs. Tekumel

[korgoth]

I have been looking over my copy of EPT from Tita's (just off and on; I've been ill lately and have had a lot on my plate besides). I have a few questions so far... I was hoping the goodly sages hereabouts might have some answers.

1. Are all archers at least 4th level?
I don't really understand the logic behind the weapon progression in the Warrior Professional Skills, #430 (EPT (DW) p. 20). The best you can roll at 1st level is 5 skills of the first 7; after that you would have to pick up the remaining two before getting the eighth skill, "bowman". Which suggests that nobody below 4th level can use a bow. Which I find odd.

I am also confused as to the relatively low placement of the "slinger" skill. Doesn't it take longer to learn the sling than it does the crossbow? I'm sure it must. Just about any dorf can shoot a crossbow... I know this because I did quite well with one my first time out.

Anyway, that whole progression seems pretty illogical to me.

2. How sharp can hide actually be?
I am also confused about the notion of most weapons and armor being 'sharpened' chlen-hide. Interesting idea... but how does chlen-hide cut through metal armor? I don't see that happening. I don't really even see how hide can actually be sharp. This may sound like a small point but it's the sort of thing that bugs me.

3. How stratified is stratified?
This is supposed to be a really stratified culture, right? There are 752,000 different ways of scratching your nose depending on what class you are, where you are from, whether your name includes more fricatives than alveopalatals, etc. Is that acutally fun to play in? By "play" I suppose I don't mean something like Vampire Larping where you pretend to be a member of a subtle and complex social system vying for power, etc. (which is fine if that's your thing), but something more like traditional fantasy fare: exploring the underworld, fighting the monster, getting the loot, saving the girl, etc.

In other words, assuming that I can decide to suspend disbelief about the civilization (I think it's too rigid and relativist to last as long as it is supposed to have, especially when surrounded by as many belligerents), do the vast complexities and iron-clad strictures of that civilization do anything besides interfere with the action at hand? Or are they things that are easily ignored, or even helpful to running a Sword and Sorcery style game?

4. Whyat is the fan base like?
I have poked around the 'net a bit looking at Tekumel stuff. There seem to be some folks with chips on their shoulders, especially about D&D players (perhaps its some strange life-imitates-art effect whereby caste system enthusiasts want to start a fandom caste system, or something like that). But everybody here is kosher. Is this place the norm, or the anomaly? Also, do Tekumel enthusiasts in general get mad if you deviate from "Tekumel according to Hoyle", or are most folks cool with the idea of making it your own?

[doc]

Well, I'm no expert on Tekumel, only having just discovered it myself, but I'll try to answer your questions in what will hopefully be an semi-intelligent manner.

1. You're right, it is sort of screwy. The best way that I can rationalize it is that weapons like spears, flails, and axes require much less finesse that swords and daggers. And ranged weapons take more finesse than melee weapons. Thus, warriors on Tekumel start with the most basic weapons and work their way up. I would allow a fighter to use a sword or bow if he hadn't yet gotten the skill, but at a -2 to strike.

And a sling is somewhat easier to use than a bow. It might take a little more practice to aim with it, but a sling is a weapon that can be taught to a child as it is light, easy to carry, simple to care for, and easily hidden. A bow, not so much.

2. I assume that chlen hide, when living (that is, before it is scraped from the chlen, is somewhat pliable. But after it is removed, it begins to harden to a point where if it is shaped relatively quickly (within two days or so after removal) it can be used to form decent weapons sharp enough to cut through most forms of armor if used properly. It makes no sense to us because no animal on Earth has a hide that works like that, but obviously on Tekumel that isn't the case.

3. The bottom line is that it is as stratified as the GM and players want to make it.

4. My experience is that Tekumel fans are pretty much just like everybody else on this board; experienced gamers with a strong appreciation of Old School. I've found that they don't get mad if you deviate from the norm because, well, there really isn't a norm. There are four "official" versions of Tekumel, plus countless fan adaptations of Tekumel to RuneQuest, Dragon Warriors, Talislanta, D&D 3.5, and homebrew systems galore.

Hope that this helps somewhat.



Doc

[James Maliszewski]

1. Yes, it is odd and I don't think there's any getting around that. It's possible there was some logic behind it, but I'll be d**ned if I know what it was. My suggestion would be to be flexible on this point and use your judgment rather than the rules as written.

2. Chlén hide is very sharp when treated by a "tanning" process that hardens it to near-metal quality. Remember that iron is rare on Tékumel and almost never used for armor or weaponry, so the issue of chlén hide vs. metal armor is a rare occurrence.

3. As Doc stated, it's as stratified as you want it to be. My preference is for "cinematic stratified," which is to say you make a point of impressing upon your players the need to know their station and act according to the proper rules of etiquette. You can and should gloss over the specifics unless you can get a fun adventure idea out of it. If you can, feel free to be persnickety and enforce all kinds of odd social strictures on the PCs.

4. Tékumel fans run the gamut from very freewheeling open-minded types to some very frightening obsessive types and everything in between. My advice is to avoid Tékumel fandom for the most part unless you really want to delve deeply into the setting. You'll find very few EPT fans among the contemporary Tékumel community, as it's a game they generally consider too simplistic a portrayal of the setting. That's a feature not a bug IMO but obviously opinions vary.

[ffilz]

One thing to remember, level in Tekumel also indicates social standing to some extent, so the bow is restricted to those with some social standing (hmm, even citizenship, doesn't that come at 4th level?).

Frank

[bert]

1. The bowman thing... Well enuff said, ignore the rule if you don't like it.

2. In later versions of the EPT rules and in the excellent Swords and Glory background books chlen hide is described as having qualities akin to a dense plastic or fibreglass. The chlen, after all, is an alien beast further modified by genetic engineering and is worked by applying a vairety of chemical processes that in turn soften it so it can be easily cut and molded to shape, hardened to a teflon-like consistency, sharpened and then given the all imortant lacquer in your clan/temple/regiment colours.

How can it cut metal? Imagine being smacked with a sharpened light aircraft propellor, it will hurt, and IMO chlen hide weapons will often be weighted with lead or stone to give them a bit of extra punch.

3. Again up to the GM, but the sourcebooks suggest that it is stratified to the point where it is highly inadvisable to have too wide a range of castes in your party; a low clanner cannot speak directly to high clan person without insulting them, a high clan aristo immediately demeans himself by seeing his low-clan guard or palanquin carrier as anything more than a peice of mobile furniture. The army allows more leeway with rank somewhat counteracting caste, but then only high caste people can look to making it to the higher ranks anyway, and legions tend to recruit within a limited caste range.

It is sort of like medieval Japan, with everyone being careful to be polite to everyone of their own caste in case some matter of honour breaks out in violence, being wary of the upper crust as they are mad bastards who will kill you as soon as look at you and kicking the peasants 'cos they are peasants and that is what they are for. Leave your liberal western attitudes behind, this is ancient civilisation in the raw (or start a new sect of Chegarra dedicated to equality before the law and fight the good fight against the system...)

4. Fans are all pretty much as you see them on this board; if people are chippy about D&D it because of the usual reason that it is galling that a naff rules system like d20 backed up by derivative and unimaginative campaign settings like Forgotten Realms has managed to be so successful while a unique work of art like Tekumel languishes in obscurity.

If you want to see chippy try the Glorantha related boards.

[korgoth]

Thanks for all the replies so far! Good thoughts.

You've convinced me on the chlen-hide. As to the issue of Warrior professional skills, I may redesign the table. I'll post it if I come up with something decent.

EPT has been enjoyable to explore thus far, so it's nice to clear up some of these lingering issues.

[edsan]

My two cents.

1. Are all archers at least 4th level?

Archers (or any other weapon-users) can be what level the GM decides them to be.

2. How sharp can hide actually be?

As sharp as copper or bronze but less than steel. So more than enough to chop limbs and heads off

Note that chlen-hide is *not* leather by any stretch of the imagination. We assume it is some form of organic polymer that aquires metal-like hardness after undergoing two chemical processes.

Medieval metal weapons usualy dont "cut" through metal armor either. And who the heck wears metal armour in Tekumel anyway?

3. How stratified is stratified?

As stratified as you want it to be on your campaign. If you want your players to give "high-fives" to the God-Emperor, by all means do so.

I don't think Tekumel is that stratified at all. IMHO folks just forget how stratified *any* pre-industrial culture was and play their D&D characters with 21st century mindsets, then they get bemused when a game like EPT reinforces the fact that it does *not* take place in a western democratic society and that being impolite to nobles and generals canget you killed.

4. Whyat is the fan base like?

A lot of the RPG gaming community in general has "chips" about D&D, for a variety of reasons (sound or unsound). I do not think Tekumel folks are any better or worse in that aspect.

Like someone mentioned there is a hard-core group of people centered in and around the famous thursday-night group who have gamed Tekumel for years, met the professor, etc. They are very acessible and most are happy to share their expertise with the setting online.

IMHO, "this place" *is* an anomaly because most people here like/play old school games.

The "caste system" you (hopefuly) were joking about is not real, of course. I only met something remotely similar to what you are describing among WW-fanatics.

However, by its very nature Tekumel takes a little extra effort to "get into" compared to vanilla-fantasy because the usual gamers lack the cultural reference that help one get into LoTR easily.

From accounts I've read, even back in the 70-80s when the D&D-like EPT and a few magazine articles where all that was avaiable people were pregnant doging on about how intricate and difficult the setting was and how only the Prof. could run it, how the names were unprunouncable, etc.

Bottom line: this ain't Kansas anymore toto.

That said, I have gamed D&D in the past with people that could not tell the difference between chain and plate armour, thought potatoes were native to Europe and assumed peasants could loud-mouth nobles and get away with it.
Mature fantasy roleplaying requires a minimum of historical/sociological knowledge. Tekumel requires just a bit more, usually. If this sounds elitist, that's fine.

As for setting deviations, by all means go ahead. I've read stuff on the forums about "personal Tekumels" that make me roll my eyes up in disbelief. But hey, it's their game not mine.

[calithena]

Steak and potatoes have to be available in every fantasy setting. Otherwise there's no way for fighters to get their hit points back!

[badger2305]

Pretty much what everybody else has said so far. Korgoth. I'm probably one of those people who others might identify as a "scary obsessive" about Tekumel, but as Prof. Barker himself has said, "you've bought the game, now make it your Tekumel."

For what it's worth, early players in Prof. Barker's campaign has some of the same questions you did, and figured out through play what was going on. This resulted in some interesting character names, such as...

• Hashish
  
• Abilene (pronounced "Ah-be-lee-nay", if you are a purist )
  
• Xerox (pronounced "Khe-rokh", again, IF you're a purist)
  
• Houck'p'too (get that throat clearing at the beginning, if you know what I mean...)
  

One aspect of early gaming in Tekumel was that the "fresh off the boat in Jakalla harbor" start-up was to recognize that players would be clueless about the culture, and allowed player ignorance to be mirrored in their characters.* However, in order to avoid getting chopped into dogmeat (yes, the Tsolyani have dogs), these early characters often found patrons fairly quickly. These patrons would act as a shield between them and the rest of society, tolerate their foibles, and provide them avenues for advancement. It worked some of the time: the last-named character in the list above is now a member of a high clan and a General of the Empire (and no, it's not me....).

*as far as I can recall and tell from what others in Prof. Barker's campaign have told me about their own experiences.

[casey777]

This is a lengthy reply but I felt it warranted. I can split it up if you want. Some very good questions.

korgoth said:

1. Are all archers at least 4th level?
I don't really understand the logic behind the weapon progression in the Warrior Professional Skills, #430 (EPT (DW) p. 20).

Offhand if you want a archer or slinger or whatnot, just make *that* skill the first weapon pick. Either just swap it for a later pick or rewrite the chart in terms of (1st pick) (2nd pick) and so forth.

In setting, which you can take as much or little as you want, actual legion units in Tsoylanu are each modeled around a particular mix of weapons, sometimes with a part armed this way (say elites get some metal weapons and/or heavier ones), another that, the rest with the main mix. Usually dedicated missile troops are auxiliaries, either from missile legions or local conscripts (which may be seasonally raised or ad hoc). Some non-missile legions (i.e. the infantry ones) also will have a missile and/or thrown weapon to supplement their main weapons, like historical Jannisaries, Persians, and other types.

There's some variety within even Tsoylanu legions (esp. among the foreign, mercenary and non-human units) so even "by the book" there's justification for just going with what weapon choice you desire.

2. How sharp can hide actually be?
I am also confused about the notion of most weapons and armor being 'sharpened' chlen-hide. Interesting idea... but how does chlen-hide cut through metal armor? I don't see that happening. I don't really even see how hide can actually be sharp.

I explain Chlen hide as bio-renewable alien plexiglass from bio-engineered alien dinosaurs. It is a stumbling block for some. Barker wanted a fantastic way to not have a metal-rich society and Chlen is one way he achieves that.

While Chlen hide can be repaired it's generally cheaper to recycle a broken Chlen piece & get a new one. Most Tsoylanu don't know how to "cure" it, let alone anything more sophisticated with it and there are specific clans and occupations that do so it's best to just keep at that level for the players.

Chlen is similar to bronze except it can be painted and lacquered and it's much lighter so you can wield huge maces and elaborate swords while wearing Chlen plate in jungles, all brightly painted. It also can hold an extremely sharp edge.

Chlen vs. metal: it is harder to damage equivalent metal armor and in most Tekumel rulesets it's easier for a Chlen weapon to break against metal than against Chlen armour. Gang up on a metal armoured warrior, I don't think there's any full body enclosing plate and even if there is the warrior inside would quickly collapse from the heat.

3. How stratified is stratified?
This is supposed to be a really stratified culture, right? Is that acutally fun to play in?

In other words, assuming that I can decide to suspend disbelief about the civilization (I think it's too rigid and relativist to last as long as it is supposed to have, especially when surrounded by as many belligerents), do the vast complexities and iron-clad strictures of that civilization do anything besides interfere with the action at hand? Or are they things that are easily ignored, or even helpful to running a Sword and Sorcery style game?

The details of Tekumelani culture should be a tool for GM and player alike for adventure, not obstacles to fun.

I find Tekumel very much fun to play in, but I am biased. It gives in-setting purpose to the adventuring party, to the patrons, to the adventure. You're doing the same stuff, but for clan, temple, patron, occupation, legion, political party, country and the like. Dungeoncrawl with purpose, intrigue with goals.

Undead have a place, women warriors are part & parcel of the setting, fierce barbarians that drink blood and eat flesh make sense while still inspiring terror, scheming sorcerers have a plethora of possible goals and bizarre demons to summon in horrible rituals and dungeons aren't just there. And it's all still as exotic as you want it to be.

The details are spice, use only as needed and/or to spur conflict and adventure, otherwise assume society functions as it should. Ignore what you don't want, esp. at first, and add in in-game as you go tying it into the adventure.

I typically describe Tsoylanu society as having Japanese honor, Hindi Scottish clan-castes, and a blend of Mandarin & Middle Eastern civilization by way of the Americas. That either clicks right away with players or clues me in to how I can refine it to better explain the society to them. Incan Arabian Nights on Planet Mongo.

Tip: The rules and rigidness of the society is the ideal and how the administration and society presents itself. It's still largely a group of tribes and regions who have common purpose and taxes but enforce their own order and schemes. Under the streets, in the wilds and the shadows and Foreigners' Quarters or with the application of undertones and asides you'll find a lot is the same. Just with a certain exotic Tekumel flair. Tsoylanu can get very good at sticking to the letter and form of the law while in actuality still getting their (often conflicting) goals accomplished.

One thing EPT does not have is the blood money/duel system[/i], it instead relies way too much upon executions. Using blood money and duels works a lot better and helps keep society self-regulating while also personable (read done by PCs) and heroic. Also great for long standing feuds. Also add in the corresponding concept of honors and favors. Obligations. All good fodder for a game! Don't forget to put fresh sand down on the arena floor.

As for Sword & Sorcery, that all feels like Red Nails if it'd have been written by Clark Ashton Smith with Jack Vance & Lord Dunsany making suggestions.

4. Whyat is the fan base like?
Also, do Tekumel enthusiasts in general get mad if you deviate from "Tekumel according to Hoyle", or are most folks cool with the idea of making it your own?

It's similar to Traveller fandom except with gonzo aliens, dancing girls, hard drugs and hard booze. So they can be a lot of fun but they can also at times be hard-nosed.

Unless you're discussing Barker's own campaign, thinking of writing for an official publication, or going over the novels it's all your own Tekumel and the fans are cool with that.

By its very nature Tekumel has many alternate version in-setting and with all the planes and such there's plenty of room for your campaigns. Barker's quote upthread is a good one and one I hold to.

[bert]

edsan said:

I don't think Tekumel is that stratified at all. IMHO folks just forget how stratified *any* pre-industrial culture was and play their D&D characters with 21st century mindsets, then they get bemused when a game like EPT reinforces the fact that it does *not* take place in a western democratic society and that being impolite to nobles and generals can get you killed.

Good point; even today in one party or religious states being cricitcal of the powers that be can get you in serious bother, and the idea of 'equality' we love so much in the west has a comparatively recent origin and very shallow roots across much of the modern world.

Too many RPG settings (places anti-D&D chip on shoulder) are just California in chainmail. If RPGs were TV programs they are cheapo badly acted soaps - Beverly Hill 90210 or (for UK readers) Crossroads - Tekumel is a bit more challenging than that, you really do have to get into the role of a person in a medieval culture.

[James Maliszewski]

casey777 said:

By its very nature Tekumel has many alternate version in-setting and with all the planes and such there's plenty of room for your campaigns.

I've long felt that Tékumel has suffered a lot in terms of its perceived accessibility because the concept of alternate Tékumels wasn't stressed enough in print. As noted, within the setting's cosmology, there is ample support for making it your Tékumel, without worrying about what what's happening in Professor Barker's home campaign. But all too often people get hung up on the "right" way to use the setting and it cripples creativity. It's a pity, since Tékumel is an amazing setting with lots of potential for science fantasy-flavored sword & sorcery gaming.

[Finarvyn]

Casey, yours was a lenthy but extrememly informative reply, particularly your thoughts on #3 above.

Thanks and have an EXALT for it.

[korgoth]

admin said:

Casey, yours was a lenthy but extrememly informative reply, particularly your thoughts on #3 above.

Thanks and have an EXALT for it.

Ditto.

[korgoth]

On archers and warrior professional skills:

I thought about a few different ways to do this. Here are the 2 simplest, starting with a restatement of the problem:

There are 12 skills on the list: 4 melee, 4 missile and 4 "specialist" in that order. The best possible roll for starting skills (5% chance) allows 5 of the first 7 to be chosen. The problem is that on the standard list, "bowman" is the eighth skill, and therefore inaccessible until 4th level ("commander"). The order of the 4 missile skills is: slinger, bola-slinger, crossbowman and bowman.

Rather than trying to implement something more elaborate, my ruling would probably be to move "bola-slinger" to the eighth position: slinger, crossbowman, bowman and bola-slinger. That way, "bowman" is theoretically available at 1st level to the most gifted warriors.

An alternative would be to make the 3 subdivisions of 4 explicit, and simply say that all 4 melee skills must be chosen before any missile skill is chosen, etc. This means that a 1st level character who rolls a 96-100 will start with all 4 melee skills plus 1 missile skill of his choice.

Either of these would work for me. Which one do you blokes like the most?

[greentongue]

Moving "bola-slinger" to the eighth position.

Seems like a very specialized skill and fitting that it would be an expansion not a core skill.
=

[edsan]

Ok, as for Fighting-Man skills I think the easiest option is to allow the player to choose any 2-5 skills (as per his dice roll) as long as it makes sense within the character concept.

This also helps to breathe life into the PC, as an explanation for aquiring the skills must be provided. Where did the the character learn hos to use a spear? In a legion? Or was he a tribal hunter? etc...

As an example, the tribal characters in my EPT game only had technology and resources back in their island to make daggers, clubs, spears and bows. No metal or even chlen-hide, just stone and bone. But the Chief's bodyguard PC knows how to use a sword, quite well in fact. So we ruled the few chlen-hide swords the tribe owned (all in the hands of the chief's guard) had been bought from sea traders that occasionaly visited the place.

Another character, member of a Sacred Band (i.e. Priest) values her foreign-made mace so much (the only item she managed to save during the exodus, having been passed down through the generations) she gave it a name.

And if someone was playing a High-clan, effete noble duellist on EPT I would have no problem on letting the character begin with the "Broadsword-and-dagger Man" at 1st level.

For NPCs, you can pretty much igonore weapon skills altogheter.

[Brett Slocum]

Jan 30, 2008 8:24:03 GMT -6 edsan said:

Ok, as for Fighting-Man skills I think the easiest option is to allow the player to choose any 2-5 skills (as per his dice roll) as long as it makes sense within the character concept.

This also helps to breathe life into the PC, as an explanation for aquiring the skills must be provided. Where did the the character learn hos to use a spear? In a legion? Or was he a tribal hunter? etc...

This is the method I prefer. I don't think most warriors know all the melee weapons or missile weapons. So this method allows for a strategist who only knows sword and spear that he learned in his legion.