Language of Tekumel = painful

[Finarvyn]

One thing that always troubles me about EPT is the fact that the word use (and language in general) is so unusual.

It doesn't bother me so much in Tolkien's Middle-earth because the unfamiliar terms are surrounded by words like "elves" and "dwarves" and the like. Perhaps Tolkien's creatures aren't quite what I might imagine, but they're close enough for me to get a good feel for the world without having to work at it too hard.

Barker's Empire of the Petal Throne isn't like that at all. Most of the words seem strange, there are so many accent marks all over the place, and the terminology just seems bizarre.

Does this trouble anyone else, and what do you do about it?

It's not just proper names, but also names of monster types, cities and nations, and pretty much everything else. I'm not a very good linguist (never studied foreign languages in high school or college) and I find myself getting confused quite often.

I had thought about trying to put together a list of "monster X is like Y" just for my own benifit (and to maintain my own sanity) but I can't decide if this is a good approach or would lead to taking Tekumel and making it too generic.

I really want to get "into" EPT, especially since there is so much enthusiasm here on these boards. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[coffee]

I have a couple of the novels, but I couldn't get into them for the exact same reason. The language (and this was just the names, for the most part) drives me up the wall!

There are even books out there on the language itself (at least one, I saw it at RPG Now). That sounds like too much work for me.

[greentongue]

I believe that the strange words should be used as spice, and as with most spices, used sparingly.

Many if not all have English equivalents that can be used instead. I also tend to go with the Chinese style of using nicknames. (The western view point of Chinese style, since I am not Chinese, just my wife.)

I tend to use what I like and gloss over the rest. That's just me of course but it seems to work well enough.
=

[Finarvyn]

greentongue said:

I believe that the strange words should be used as spice, and as with most spices, used sparingly.

I tend to use what I like and gloss over the rest.

Good advice. I'll try to keep that in mind as I plow through EPT readings.

[badger2305]

Three Steps to developing fluency in Tsolyani:

(1) There is a pronunciation guide in the back of EPT, with lots of unfamiliar associations ("retroflex alveolar" etc.). Best way to deal with this is to read it out loud. Go slow, and don't be surprised if you find yourself sounding a little silly. But practice it. There's a better one in the back of Man of Gold.

(2) Having read out loud the pronunciation guides, and listened to yourself, then try some of the words you might want to use in adventures to convey that sense of strangeness and difference. Shartokoi - the "honorable priest" - would be "Shar-to-koy"

(3) Accent marks ARE helpful! They tell you where to place the stress in the word. In the above example, the accent is over the "a" in Shartokoi so that is why you say "SHAR-to-koy".

In all of this, saying words out loud is essential. You may think you sound odd, but try it. It works!

[bert]

You do have to be a bit of a linguistics freak to understand the pronounciation guide let alone the glossaries, but as Greentongue says you can use the odd word here and there as camapign spice and leave it at that.

But do look further, as the Tsolyani language is actually a very clever bit of writing in and of itself. As with real world languages it reflects the culture that created it and uses it.

Its bewildering variety of versions of the word 'you' depending on who is speaking and who is being adressed reflects the obsession with social status for example, with literal translations that reflect the fact that the high catse really do treat the low caste like rubbish.

Many noun suffixes reflect the attitude of the speaker toward the object discussed emphasising subjectivity and opinion, verb suffixes include accurate assessments of tense as used by the lower class and vague upper class witterings, and the overall structure of the language with its vast mutlisyllable agglomerations reflects the underlying orderliness of the Tsolyani mind and its urge to classify, and is not dissimilar to some of the more high falutin' German I have heard.

As for pronounciation, it is not actually that hard, but looks it because English speakers are lazy so and sos who can't be bothered to use all the accents and squiggles they ought to to help people relate spelling to pronouciation.

My four pennorth.

[thorswulf]

The language is one of the main reasons I LOVE the game! I'm NOT a linguist, and know a smattering of words in several languages, but that is it. I figure knowing how to ask where the bathroom is d**n useful in any language!

I also understand that the language can be very hard for some people. Keep at it! If for no other reason, Tsolyani will give you some cool names for any OD&D campaign!

On a more personal note, I spent my college years studying creative writing, and the impact of sound in poetry. To make a long story short, sounds fascinate me. Language is the streaming together of sounds. So of course I fell in love with EPT! It is one of the few games that expects it's audience to not only be a little more mature, but also enthralled with the idea of a truly alien world.

[bert]

Thorswulf, ever read Sanskrit poetry? If you can handle wierd languages it might be up your street, very rhythmic and formal in structure, with little four line stanzas as dense with meaning as a haiku. Look up Kalidasa and Bhatravarti.

[Deleted]

I AM a linguist (by interest and trade), so the languages are just my cup of tea! There are indeed grammars of most of them available from DTRPG, and one can actually learn to express oneself with some fluency in Tsolyani, the language of the Empire of the Petal Throne itself. There is even a CD with a Tsolyani pronunciation guide recorded by Professor Barker himself.

Barker was a Professor of Languages like Tolkien, but Barker's early work was on the languages of the Native Americans. He is a Muslim and is married to a woman from the Indian sub-continent, and until recently held the Chair of SE Asian studies at the Uni of Minnesota.

The languages thus approximate both those of Native American communities and those of the Indo-Pakistani-Afghani areas - Tsolyani, for example, contains echoes of Mayan and Urdu (the language of Pakistan).

But, just as you don't have to be adept in Quenya or Khuzdul to enjoy Tolkien or play D&D, neither do you need Tsolyani 401 - or even Salarvyani for Beginners - to play EPT. Greentongue has it right here - drop a word in here and there for atmosphere, or take Bert's idea and use translated forms of the attitude prefixes/suffixes and of the relevant one of the 32 forms of "you."

Kudos to Badger2305 for the suggestions on pronunciation too.

Finally, I'd like to second Thorswulf's statements. I too am a major fan of Tekumel, and I too appreciate the "adultness" of the game as well as the "alien-ness" of the world in which it is set.

Sally Abravanel

[thorswulf]

I don't think I'll be able to take up learning Sanskrit anytime soon, as my 19 month old daughter takes up most of it! I agree that the language certainly adds to the atmosphere of the game, and that it isn't everone's cup of tea! I think EPT has the distinction of being the first rpg with it's own script for a foreign language, and the nicest gaming maps ever made!

[philotomy]

I think the language element of EPT is very cool, but it's one of those things I'll never delve into, much. It's not because I'm not interested, it's because I don't have the time. The writing, in particular, appeals to me, with its Middle-Eastern inspiration, but it's one of those things I'll just have to "admire from afar." If I were going to invest that much time and effort, I'd rather learn a real-world language, devote the time to reading/writing poetry, et cetera. (Heck, I already feel kinda guilty for knowing so damn much about the history and geography of Middle Earth, but knowing next-to-nothing about the history of India...)

As far as simply using the unfamiliar words in a game, I have mixed feelings on that. They're neat, and I don't have too much trouble pronouncing them, but there are an awful lot of them. I'd have to actually run EPT to see if they bothered me (or the group), in play. I suspect that I would enjoy it, but some of my players would not.

[Finarvyn]

I have this same problem with Tolkien's Middle-earth as I do with Barker's Tekumel. I read articles about the language (of Tekumel, M-e, whatever) and the authors deal with accent signs and lots of things that I really don't recall from my school days.

And I'm too old and busy to really learn it all over again. Every time the desire hits me, I find that there are too many family things and whatnot getting in the way. What I need is a "Linguistics for Dummies" book that I could knock off in a couple days in order to become a master.

On the other hand, as a teacher if I could ever figure out how to master a complex subject in just a couple days I'd market it to my students and make a fortune. Ah, well.....

[alvahardison]

Back in 1975 when I was first introduced to EPT and Tekumel the language gave me problems, and what I did was to just do the best I could. The color of the place was what really interested me more than anything. Years later when I was in a hoby shop in BG, KY and offered to run the game, the owner asked me how I delt with the "STRANGE" language and I replied "ain't no problem I just pronounce things as best I can and the players adjust."

[alvahardison]

Tsolyani is not really all that difficult. True there are plenty of accents but have you looked at any of the Romance laguages? French and its first cousin Romainian have all kinds of accents. Then there is Chech (the Chech Republic), and Turkish. I will not even go to the cyrilic Russian area.

[casey777]

admin said:

One thing that always troubles me about EPT is the fact that the word use (and language in general) is so unusual.
<snip>
Barker's Empire of the Petal Throne isn't like that at all. Most of the words seem strange, there are so many accent marks all over the place, and the terminology just seems bizarre.

Does this trouble anyone else, and what do you do about it?

It's not just proper names, but also names of monster types, cities and nations, and pretty much everything else. I'm not a very good linguist (never studied foreign languages in high school or college) and I find myself getting confused quite often.

Pull a Homer (as in Greek epic poetry). Almost all the gods, titles, monsters, etc. have additional or translated terms. So Lord Sarku is "of Everlasting Intelligence" or is the "Five Headed Worm", Dra is Blind and Uncaring. There are Devourers of Eyes, Whimperers, Pale-Lizards, Gnawing Things, talking birds, spotted cats, triple-eyed dinosaurs. Use the in-language term for maximum impact as few times as needed (if at all) in conjunction with the evocative phrase or term in English then switch to the English term.

I use a select few greeting terms but NEVER the exact you and name for the form of dress. I assume society functions like it should unless someone's trying to muck it up or something has otherwise gone wrong (i.e. the party ).

The words actually flow pretty easily for me (I type them much worse) but I like foreign films and am into American myth. I also tend to "hear" Clark Ashton Smith and Jack Vance stories when I'm running a game, which helps give me confidence. That's key IMO, just plow ahead. Certainly most in setting words sound better IMO than a lot of totally made up fantasy names that have had no linguistic thought put to them. Tekumel has, and it shows admirably.

Ignore the accent marks, esp. at first. Fudge a Hindu or Mexican accent if nothing else, something to set it apart but not be too difficult. Most of the personal names have (nominal) meanings so you could in a pinch use those too, as descriptors at the least.