You, too, CAN run Empire of the Petal Throne

[rleduc]

Sounds like a fantastic start!

[badger2305]

Sept 12, 2011 21:28:41 GMT -6 rleduc said:

Sounds like a fantastic start!

I very much agree!

I should commend to everyone's attention Chris Kutalik's on-going EPT efforts, detailed here and here. The "house rules" they have come up with so far are quite sensible, though the biggest area of real difference between EPT and later games for Tekumel is the magic system. I will have something up for that a little later in this thread.

[greentongue]

Excellent!! Old Style for the Win!
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[Lord Kjeran]

Chello!

Sept 12, 2011 21:04:57 GMT -6 @tahacykranosh said:

Mental note: the gang wear snazzy red tunics.

Haha! Awesome! I might have to steal that!!!

[Deleted]

Quote - "I will have something up for that a little later in this thread." Awesome. Look forward to seeing how you suggest to handle this retro-inclusion. I'm thinking of allowing Universal, Generic, and Temple spells to be injected into the original ept as "Group 1" "Group 2" and "Group 3"selections under Section 500. I was considering then re-doing the Professional Skills listings of section 430 to have One From Group I, or One From Group I and One From Group II, then at higher circles / levels, allow One From Group III, representing temple spell learning. These offerings in addition to the existing static order of spell learning for those two classes; which I think is a tad too static for most players tastes. I digress, I look forward to reading what you have on the topic of using magic from the later rule sets in the original.

[soundchaser]

Yeah, a magic sys fix for the original rules would be great to see. Lubidius, I like your basic idea with the fitting to groups.

[badger2305]

Sept 19, 2011 13:40:18 GMT -6 @lubidius said:

Quote - "I will have something up for that a little later in this thread." Awesome. Look forward to seeing how you suggest to handle this retro-inclusion. I'm thinking of allowing Universal, Generic, and Temple spells to be injected into the original ept as "Group 1" "Group 2" and "Group 3"selections under Section 500. I was considering then re-doing the Professional Skills listings of section 430 to have One From Group I, or One From Group I and One From Group II, then at higher circles / levels, allow One From Group III, representing temple spell learning. These offerings in addition to the existing static order of spell learning for those two classes; which I think is a tad too static for most players tastes. I digress, I look forward to reading what you have on the topic of using magic from the later rule sets in the original.

Very much along the lines of my own thinking. I had been thinking about keeping some of the non-magical skills that are often the province of priests and lay-priests. More to come shortly.

[greentongue]

I associated the Group spells with a God with the intent that you had to get it from their temple.
Also, it helps determine what NPCs would have.
home.earthlink.net/~djackson24/EPT_Spells.htm
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[Deleted]

And yet again, I'm indebted to you Greentongue! I missed that you had labeled each of them. Your site is a "Gods"-send (pun intended).

[Deleted]

One aspect of the later rules that I like a lot is the extra expenditure of psychic reservoir etc. to attain differing "levels" of effect for a given spell. Not many rpg's simulate this very well. I may allow this as well into my O:EPT games, but higher levels would drain the magic user or priest a certain number of rounds extra. In effect, they could cast the spell at the higher 'effect level' but are drained, lets say an extra 1d2 rounds for mid-level effect, and an extra 1d4 or 1d6 for highest level of effect. If they attempt any actions during that effected period, they'd be at an automatic (-4) mod to all rolls, or something similarly sinister (alliteration at its finest)

[ckutalik]

Sept 20, 2011 7:02:31 GMT -6 @lubidius said:

And yet again, I'm indebted to you Greentongue! I missed that you had labeled each of them. Your site is a "Gods"-send (pun intended).

A big second on that sentiment, incredibly helpful when you have new players (most to all in my Google+ groups) to point them to your site.

[Deleted]

A slight correction to my last post. I completely forgot that in S&G and Gardasiyal that you spent "Spell Purchase Points" to buy the higher levels of a given spell; not as 'expenditure' from daily allotted "pedhetl" (or mana for a more generic term) at a higher level of effect My mistake. It's been a while since I've read through the later rules. Oddly, I kind of like my misinterpretation that higher level of effect drains the caster more. In my west end games d6 conversion I had the levels of universal, generic, or temple spells only able to be cast by certain levels of skill in the associated magic skill. Long story short, you could only cast at a higher effect if you were more skilled in it.

[bert]

No, you had it right the first time - higher levels of spell effect cost more immediate mana points, as well as more Spell Purchase Points (a different sort of points) to learn when creating your character of going up a level.

If I was a fourth level caster and whizzed off a nice easy basic Alleviation (U2) to cure the poison in a nasty bug bite, it would cost me (according to the table on p3 of the Gardasiyal magic book) 30 points of 'oomph'.

Being a Dlamelish worshipper I could also go for a an improved Alleviation at level G2 to sober up from drink and drugs after showing my devotion to the goddess by going on a 24 hour bender, costing me 40 power points.

If I had expended enough spell purchase points during character generation I might even be able to cure Paralysis with the same spell (Level G4 effect) at 60 points.

If I was a Thumis worshipper and was caster level 10 +, had enough clout in the temple and loads of spare power points I might even try the ultimate Alleviation spells at T9 and cure radiation sickness for even more points or T10 and possibly cure Zu'ur addiction.

BUT pedhetl/mana costs go down as you rise in level. My Alleviation U2 poison cure costs me 40 pedhetl if I was a level 1-3 caster - a good chunk of the 200 or so I might have available - 30 at levels 4-6 and decreasing in three level steps until at 16th caster level I can pop them off for 3 pedhetl a go.

How you would translate all this to EPT is another matter - I'd like to see what Victor comes up with, but I have a few ideas of my own.

[badger2305]

There are a variety of ways to go about this. One important thing to remember is that "game" Tekumel is more "powered-up" than "real" Tekumel (insofar as Prof. Barker has written about it). So - depending on what kind of game you want - you can decide for yourself how to make the numbers come out.

Approaching this from the Empire of the Petal Throne side, there is Greentongue's excellent work simply aligning the EPT spell corpora with the various Temples, as shown here. (It should be noted, however, that the Group III Walls spell actually should be associated with several different Temples, not just Vimuhla.)

From the Swords & Glory/Gardasiyal side, the addition of Psychic Reservoir as a characteristic is more accurate, but it also immediately adds something to EPT that was not there. My suggestion is to not add it in, but to use Psychic Ability as a stand-in for it. While some might pine for the increased granularity of a power point pool, it's not absolutely warranted. After that, adding in Universal/Generic/Temple spells as the equivalent of Group I, II, and III is not too difficult. What's not as easy to reconcile are the Professional Skills for Priests and Magic-Users, which are mostly spells in disguise. On a first blush, however, the magic systems are adaptable to each other on a very rough basis.

(more to follow)

[soundchaser]

badger, are you about to continue your series on GMing?

[Deleted]

bert - Thank you for the clarifications! And the nice examples.

badger2305 - I'm thinking along your lines. You don't want to end up with something altogether different then o:ept. I would definitely like to see how you would handle the professional skill listings. As stated previously, I was considering, with a newly greatly expanded listing of Group I, II and III spells, that the static linear progression of professional skill listings (for priests and magic-users) of those somewhat 'cantrip' level spells to be honest, would be replaced with "Pick One From Group I", etc. sparingly, in a reasonable progression through "levels". This would be a slight adjustment to a % CHANCE at Bonus spells, which I think is a tad wonky. You have a chance there then of not getting anything worthwhile for some time using strictly the original text/ruling. Anyhow, I digress - I'd love to see what you come with. BACK to original topic, apologies to side-tracking the original intent here ; but I'd love to see you continue to expand on the GM'ing tips as soundchaser queries above.

Peter Robbins
Co-Admin
skeinofdestiny.blogspot.com/

[badger2305]

Sept 28, 2011 22:16:41 GMT -6 soundchaser said:

badger, are you about to continue your series on GMing?

Yep!

[badger2305]

Part Nine - Some Deeper Principles, continued

There are no "non-player characters" on Tekumel. In Sec. 900 we discover that:

Players who do attempt to enter Jakalla alone at this stage run the risk of making errors in speaking Tsolyani or in the intricate rules of Imperial etiquette. A six-sided die is rolled each turn, and a roll of 6 indicates that some such faux pas has been committed. Further reactions of the Tsolyani are then determined by the Nonplayer Character Reaction Table (see below), and subsequent actions may range from derision and laughter to a quick trip to the neighborhood impalement stake (emphasis added). Duels are common, but most Imperials of higher rank will not bother with an itinerant foreigner but will simply call the city patrols.

What this means is that, unlike D&D where there is often the assumption that player-characters are freebooters in a world of shopkeepers, Empire of the Petal Throne assumes that there are almost always people of higher social status and power than player-characters. and in fact, most people are of higher status than player-characters when they first begin adventuring.

The implications of this are straightforward, but may be unsettling to players used to the "open frontier" of D&D. In Tekumel, social connections are a resource to be prized and not something that is an "optional add-on." In this milieu, almost nothing is done as a completely independent activity - to your average Tsolyani, that would be dangerously unsupported! Rather, there are always social considerations that complicate and enhance options and opportunities. Bob Alberti has written an elegant exposition on this, here.

[foxroe]

Oct 1, 2011 11:21:41 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

The implications of this are straightforward, but may be unsettling to players used to the "open frontier" of D&D.

I see this as an impetus that would drive the player characters to want to explore Jakalla's (or any other city's) underworld as a way of escaping the normal oppressions of society on Tekumel.

[badger2305]

Oct 1, 2011 14:57:09 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Oct 1, 2011 11:21:41 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

The implications of this are straightforward, but may be unsettling to players used to the "open frontier" of D&D.

I see this as an impetus that would drive the player characters to want to explore Jakalla's (or any other city's) underworld as a way of escaping the normal oppressions of society on Tekumel.

Absolutely. In fact, a good deal of adventuring on Tekumel can be summarized as, "how do I do what I want while at the same time satisfying my social obligations?" This might seem somewhat onerous as an expectation, but I would submit that it is highly satisfying to accomplish both. As Prof. Barker notes in The Dragon #9:

Once out of sight, either in the labyrinths below the cities or in some out-of-the-way jungle, one may count on little support from the law. Even in the cities, in broad daylight, one may attempt violence upon an opponent — but if one is caught or identified, then the offender becomes a public outlaw and can expect no aid from his/her own temple, friends, etc. This polite hypocrisy allows for a certain amount of intrigue and adventure while at the same time maintaining the social order, something very dear to most folk both on Tékumel and on this planet.

[badger2305]

The more I think about this, the more I realize that my last post ought to have been broken into two different observations:

There are no non-player characters on Tekumel. There is a real social hierarchy in Empire of the Petal Throne - the story of General Kettukal reinforces this, for example, through the very real adage of doing as the Emperor commands. Some people will be below you, and some at your level, and some above you. Be ready to deal with that. As a referee, be ready to remind people of this.

-and-

Social connections are a resource, not a drag. Part of the deeper attraction of Tekumel is the development of connections between player-characters and other characters, be they patrons, henchmen, colleagues, servants, or something else altogether. This is different from D&D, where "party loyalty" is often the boundary line for such things. As a referee, be ready to provide opportunities to build these connections - and use them as hooks for further adventures.

[andreasdavour]

Any more post in the line? I thought this was quite interesting!

[spudcld]

I have to agree Victor. This has been a great read. Entertaining, interesting, informative, and just generally enjoyable. I'd love to hear more. Might make me think I can actually run a game.

Chris

[soundchaser]

I am providing a friendly "bump" to put this wonderful thread up at the front of the list... I wonder if a mod wouldn't mind making it a sticky, as it is really *that* helpful and all-around excellent as a resource

[badger2305]

I'm currently really busy, but I am hoping to return to this relatively soon.

[Baron]

Looking forward to it!

[rleduc]

I'll be following this plan in an upcoming campaign I hope to run, at least for a few short sessions. I'll be blogging about it at Tekumel Mojo at tekumelmojo.wordpress.com. I'd welcome any comments.

[greentongue]

Feb 22, 2012 8:15:26 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

I'm currently really busy, but I am hoping to return to this relatively soon.

It's all "relative".
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[soundchaser]

Any chance someone has compiled Badger's comments and aids in a document?

[Deleted]

Hey, guys!

I am running a Tekumel game on April 24th, and, while I already have a scenario in mind, I generally wonder if there are any official short scenario set in the world of the Great Professor. Can you point me to a Dragon/Polyhedron/White Dwarf or similar short scenario?