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Post by Finarvyn on Nov 21, 2007 11:14:03 GMT -6
I grabbed some information from Wikipedia for anyone who has heard about Empire of the Petal Throne, but isn't quit sure what it is....
The world of Tékumel, Nu Ophiuchi d (a.k.a. Sinistra d), was first settled by humans exploring the galaxy about 60,000 years in the future, along with several other alien species. Their extensive terraforming of the inhospitable environment, including changing the planet's orbit and rotation rate to create a 365.25-day year, disrupted local ecologies and banished most of the local flora and fauna (including some intelligent species) to small reservations in the corners of their own world, resulting in a golden age of technology and prosperity for humankind and its allies. Tékumel became a resort world, where the wealthy from a thousand other stars could while away their time next to its warm seas.
Suddenly, and for reasons unknown, Tékumel and its star system (Tékumel's two moons, Gayél and Káshi, its sun, Tuléng, and four other planets, Ülétl, Riruchél, Shíchel, and Zirúna) was cast out of our reality into a "pocket dimension" (known as a béthorm in Tsolyáni), in which there were no other star systems. One hypothesis is that this isolation happened through hostile action on the part of an unknown party or group. Another is that the cosmic cataclysm was due to over-use of a faster than light drive which warped the fabric of space. No one knows, but the inhabitants of Tékumel, both human, native, and representatives of the other starfaring races, were now isolated and alone.
Severed from vital interplanetary trade routes (Tékumel is a world very poor in heavy metals) and in the midst of a massive gravitic upheaval due to the lines of gravitational force between the stars being suddenly cut, civilization was thrown into chaos. The intelligent native species, the Hlüss and the Ssú, broke free from their reservations and wars as destructive as the massive geographic changes ravaged the planet. Several other significant changes took place due to the crisis: mankind discovered it could now tap into ultraplanar energies that were seen as magical forces, the stars were gone from the sky, dimensional nexi were uncovered and pacts with "demons" (inhabitants of dimensions near in n-dimensional space to Tékumel's pocket dimension) were made and a complex pantheon of "Gods" (powerful extra-dimensional or multi-dimensional alien beings) discovered. Science began to stagnate until ultimately knowledge became grounded in traditions handed down from generations long ago, the belief that the universe was ultimately understandable slowly faded, and a Time of Darkness descended over the planet.
Much of Barker's writing concerns a time approximately 50,000 years after Tékumel has entered its pocket dimension. Five vast tradition-oriented civilizations occupy a large portion of the northern continent. These five human empires, along with various non-human allies who are descended from other star faring races, vie to control resources, including other planar "magical powers" and ancient technology, as they vie for survival and supremacy among themselves as well as hostile and other non-human races.
Much of the gaming materials and other writings focus particularly on these Five Empires which control much of the world's northern continent (only about an eighth of the planet's surface has published maps).
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Post by Finarvyn on Nov 21, 2007 11:14:35 GMT -6
Tsolyáni is one of several languages spoken on the world of Tékumel, and was the first conlang published as part of a role-playing game. It is inspired by Urdu, Pushtu and Mayan, the latter influence can be seen in the inclusion of the sounds hl /ɬ/ and tl /tɬ/.
As expected, Barker has put great effort into the languages of Tékumel. Although Tsolyáni is the only Tekumeláni language that has had a full grammar book, dictionary, pronunciation tapes (now on CD) and a primer, publicly released, it is not the only language for this world that Barker has developed.
Also available are grammar guides for the Yán Koryáni and Livyáni languages which are spoken in two other of the "Five Empires" of the known parts of Tékumel, as well as grammar books for Engsvanyáli and Sunúz. These two languages are now extinct, dead languages. Engsvanyáli is of use as it is the root language for Tsolyáni and many of the other currently spoken languages of the known parts of Tékumel. Sunúz is of interest because, although it is obscure, it is quite useful for sorcerous purposes. For instance, Sunúz contains terms to describe movement in a six dimensional multi-planar space, something of use to beings who visit the other planar realms where "demons" live.
Barker has also published extensively on scripts for other languages of Tékumel.
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Post by Finarvyn on Nov 21, 2007 11:15:02 GMT -6
Barker was a Professor of Urdu and South Asian Studies at the University of Minnesota during the period when David Arneson, Gary Gygax and a handful of others were developing the first role-playing games in Minneapolis and Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. Barker tapped into this tradition to explore and develop the Tékumel setting. His "Thursday Night Groups" were some of the first roleplaying sessions anywhere and provided what was, at the time, a unique, week-by-week development of the setting.
In 1975, Tactical Studies Rules, Inc., the publishers of Dungeons & Dragons, published the Tékumel fantasy setting as a standalone game under the title of The Empire of the Petal Throne (a synonym for the Tsolyáni Empire). It brought a level of detail and quality to the campaign setting which had previously been unknown in the RPG industry, and could be considered a turning point away from the tactical roots of RPGs. The game was the subject of articles in early issues of Dragon Magazine, but factors including inconsistent support from TSR led to its decline in popularity. Over the subsequent thirty years several new games based on the Tékumel setting were published, but to date none have met with commercial success. While published as fantasy, this edition of the game is sometimes classified as science fantasy and erroneously as science fiction.
The most recent of these is Tékumel: Empire of the Petal Throne and was published by Guardians Of Order (GOO).
In 1984, DAW Books published Barker's Tékumel novel The Man of Gold. This was followed by Flamesong in 1985. In 2003, Zottola Publishing published three additional novels: Prince of Skulls, Lords of Tsámra, and A Death of Kings. In 2004 Zottola Publishing produced the two-volume set Mitlanyál, which deals with the Tsolyáni pantheon and provides much background regarding the Tsolyáni culture. All Zottola Publishing products are available from Amazon.com.
The order of the novels is as follows:
The Man of Gold
Flamesong
Lords of Tsámra
Prince of Skulls
A Death of Kings
Note that they were published out of order.
There have been a wide variety of materials of all sorts published over the years to further details this world. As well as the language materials, these include Deeds of the Ever Glorious —a History of the Tsolyani Legions, The Tékumel Bestiary, and The Book of Ebon Bindings, a guide to the demonic beings that are known to the Tsolyáni, and a six volume series of booklets that details the armies of each of the Five Empires as well as surrounding states and the vast lands of the reptilian Shén. There have also been various wargames rules as well as small scale metal miniatures to represent the various races and legions.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2007 0:04:45 GMT -6
The best URL relating to matters Tekumelyani (relating to Tekumel) is www.tekumel. com . Don't forget to visit the section entitled The Blue Room Archives, which contains many meaty contributions from an old discussion group. There are also several Yahoo groups. Sally Abravanel |
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Post by crimhthanthegreat on Dec 22, 2007 11:03:42 GMT -6
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Thorulfr
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by Thorulfr on Jan 3, 2008 13:32:54 GMT -6
Part of the 'deep background' of the story is that about 110,000 years ago on Earth, WWIII wiped out the civilizations of much of the northern hemisphere. When civilization rebuilt itself, it derived from south and central America, and from central and south Asia; hence the distince Indian/Mayan feel to the art, language, and culture. Among the human races, blue eyes are a rare and much-feared genetic defect.
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casey777
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by casey777 on Jan 19, 2008 4:05:08 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2008 19:09:48 GMT -6
Yep. There's an index for Man of Gold, Flamesong, the Sourcebook and Deeds of the Ever Glorious. Said the Mad Indexer, Krista If you're reading the novels, the Tekumel Yahoo group has a good index file for at least the first novel, also IIRC one for the Tekumel Sourcebook. |
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casey777
Level 4 Theurgist
Herder of Chlen
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Post by casey777 on Jan 28, 2008 10:45:25 GMT -6
The Tékumel Product ListThe Tékumel FAQ- as is the nature of such things they're likely not 100% up to date, but are good starts There's an index for Man of Gold, Flamesong, the Sourcebook and Deeds of the Ever Glorious. Said the Mad Indexer, Krista Much snapping of fingers for the Mad Indexer! Well done, good resources (both the works and each index). Deeds is great for setting flavor, and IMO essential if your campaign involves the military in any way. And since legions are often sponsored by temples or nobles, they're as much a part of regional politics and schemes as anything else is. 
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Post by Epengar on Jun 24, 2008 14:15:45 GMT -6
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Post by badger2305 on Aug 13, 2011 22:26:41 GMT -6
A few questions: Who was the artist for the cover of EPT DW 1987? Ah! A good question! Unless I am mistaken, the cover for EPT showing Lady Yilrana and General Bazhan was done by Prof. Barker. Was there another cover you had in mind? It tends to shatter or break, rather than buckle or dent. That having been said, I am sure there are Chlen-hide tanners who have developed a hard but relatively malleable kind of material that deforms instead. It's not typical, however. I can easily see what you are asking about. However, you're looking at this from within the relatively narrow confines of Western European military development. Prof. Barker in his travels and studies in Asia was exposed to a much wider variety of weapons, weapon styles and armor. As a result, he became aware of the utility and value of arms and armor that would appear impractical or fanciful by Western standards. It was this experience that informed his design of Tekumel's arms and armor. Within the context of the world, warfare in the Five Empires is fairly ritualized, and in combination with the unique qualities of Chlen-hide, makes such arms and armor not only practical but of social value within the context of the cultures Tsolyanu and elsewhere. Does that help? I hope so. Of course! Prof. Barker mentions the possible existence of not only horses, but also the Bazhaq and the Ngekka - riding beasts from other star systems. The Bazhaq are the riding beasts of the tribes of Tane. far to the west of Mu'ugalavya. Horses and the Ngekka are on the far side of the planet. That having been said, I think you're missing the point of riding beasts within the context of Tekumel - conceptually, "riding animals" are something of a chimaera: nobody in the Five Empires would think "hey, if only we had cavalry!" as a reasonable idea. Riding horses, gunpowder, electricity, steam power, inherent equality of all sentient beings, etc. - all of these things represent ideas that would not occur to someone on Tekumel in the area of the Five Empires. For the adventure to make sense, you would first have to have someone who would be a "true believer" in something that was either trivial or considered insane by others. I'm not saying such an adventure could never happen or would be a bad idea, just that there are some cultural barriers that Americans can and do miss in their thinking. Do you see what I mean? (I moved this post over the "General Information about EPT" since it was not directly related to helping referees who have considered running EPT but have not yet done so...) |
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Post by kent on Aug 14, 2011 14:33:25 GMT -6
Ah! A good question! Unless I am mistaken, the cover for EPT showing Lady Yilrana and General Bazhan was done by Prof. Barker. Was there another cover you had in mind? When I made a box to hold my Tekumel material it was the image I used for the lid so well done Prof. Barker. I find the colouring very attractive and it is interesting to note that Helen Doward is prominently acknowledged as responsible for this. With respect you don't know what I know about weaponry. In for example Sir Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword we don't see weapons remotely as fanciful as those in the Tekumel illustrations and with good reason since weapons are not artworks but evolve slowly for highly practical reasons. I do think that the artists impressions of exotic and alien weaponry suit Tekumel and that if Barker as DM declared the weapons were highly functional *on Tekumel* I would as a player simply say, "awesome!". However if a player of mine rationally argued that he was going to use a weapon catching device, a tiny grappling hook on a short rope because of the ease with which he could tangle it on the exotic prongs of the weapons I could only congratulate him. Yes some Americans can be seem culturally isolated but I am Irish.  I have to say you completely jumped the gun as to what I meant by such an adventure. I think one reason people are diffident about asking questions of someone knowledgable in one area is the risk that they get cast as a slack jawed dimwit. Since the horses themselves made it to Tekumel it is conceivable that they were used as steeds at some point on Tekumel and that if only as legend (as for the purported metal cars of the Dragon Warriors) that documentation or artworks might survive in a sparse collection of hints which conveyed from the mouth of a mad theorist, as you say could provide for an adventure no more or less plausible than a more traditional adventure for an artifact deep in the earth. As to the reward, a "cavalry" was far from my mind. Just think of the advantage of increasing long distance travel speed threefold *relative to everyone else*, and the advantage of being able to avoid dangerous encounters by simply speeding away. The sensible way for adventurers to use horses would be secretly, and to convert them to draft animals when approaching towns since without the legends and hints, as you say, it would not occur to others how else a horse might be employed. |
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Post by badger2305 on Aug 14, 2011 22:19:17 GMT -6
With respect you don't know what I know about weaponry. In for example Sir Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword we don't see weapons remotely as fanciful as those in the Tekumel illustrations and with good reason since weapons are not artworks but evolve slowly for highly practical reasons. Thank you for the clarification! Have you seen Stone's A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor? That has a variety of examples that might be illustrative. What I've passed along is pretty much what Prof. Barker has said to us when we've asked about it, and there are several medievalists and at least one archaeologist who have gamed with him. (Me, I'm just a sociologist - I look at how people interact in societies.) Bolas are listed as available weapons...  Touche'! Hit acknowledged! My apologies - it's one of those questions which has come up so very many times in the way I criticised that I assumed yours was much the same. Unfair on my part; let me go back and listen... See, now THAT is the right and proper way to bring this up - ancient inscriptions, bas-reliefs, references in long-lost (and perhaps recently-found) manuscripts, heck, notations and marginalia on "maps." But the driving question remains - so who would think this was worthwhile? It's a mindset issue - precisely the same reason why the Inca never developed the wheel. If you do not have the conditions to make it worthwhile, it's not something people will think of. Keep in mind that horse collars made a huge difference in haulage, for example - before that, human labor was about as effective. This question does remain one of those "how many Bazhaq can dance on the head of a pin?" questions for Tekumel; the bottom line is "horses and other riding animals are - for meta-gaming purposes - on the periphery. Introducing them changes how the universe operates." I suppose I could say it's not as simple as that, but the advantage you cite would not really work. Something that provides a real advantage is something that the Imperium would want to control itself; "adventurers" are not as socially disengaged to make such a scheme work easily. Their clans would want to know what to do with these creatures - and the odd arrangements being asked for - the Omnipotent Azure Legion, their temples, various transport clans ALL would want to know what was going on. And SOME of them would work to suppress this new-fangled innovation - and so on and so forth. (This is where being a sociologist is relevant, actually...) |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2011 8:56:28 GMT -6
With respect you don't know what I know about weaponry. In for example Sir Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword we don't see weapons remotely as fanciful as those in the Tekumel illustrations and with good reason since weapons are not artworks but evolve slowly for highly practical reasons. I do think that the artists impressions of exotic and alien weaponry suit Tekumel and that if Barker as DM declared the weapons were highly functional *on Tekumel* I would as a player simply say, "awesome!". However if a player of mine rationally argued that he was going to use a weapon catching device, a tiny grappling hook on a short rope because of the ease with which he could tangle it on the exotic prongs of the weapons I could only congratulate him. With respect, you don't know what I know about the weaponry hanging on the wall in Phil's dining and living rooms.  There's a lot weirder stuff in his collection then has ever appeared in the Tekumel art, and you can find a lot more like it in both Stone and the Bannerman catalog. Most of it was picked up cheap from the police after riots in Lahore, and after cleaning some of them I can assure you that they were used in combat. (Ugh! I always got the dirty jobs.  ) I've also worn all three of his suits of armor (two Western European, 1500s-style and one Mughal) as well as my own Vimuhla armour. Phil had me wear all of them in a series of time trials with the usual actions expected of a player-character. We also tried several bouts of combat with me in the various armours, since I was the only one that fit into all of them. Each requires a very different fighting style, of course, but I felt confident enough to wear my Tekumel armor in several bouts of combat with a very well-trained opponent using medieval armor and weapons. My opponent said afterwards that he thought that it was difficult to land a good solid blow on the Tekumel armour, unlike his own early 1300s period armour. This was all back some thirty-five years ago, when Phil first started getting letters on this same subject. We thought it would be both instructive and fun to do some experiments, and it certainly was. I have also taken the liberty of attaching (I hope!) a photo of my armour back in the days when I had energy and hair... (If the attachment didn't work - the file may be too big - it's also on my little blog.) yours, Chirine |
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Post by aldarron on Aug 15, 2011 10:16:36 GMT -6
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Post by kent on Aug 15, 2011 22:09:04 GMT -6
Phil had me wear all of them in a series of time trials with the usual actions expected of a player-character. LOL. So Barker had a scientific mind! Well the original point of my query was to discover how Barker balanced the aesthetics with the real mechanics of combat apparatus when he went native in his own mind. I think realism is important because I like my players to think rationally but I like artistic flair for mood too. Anyway Barker, it is clear, gave some consideration to the usefulness of the weapons and armour which satisfied his sense of the exotic and that answers my question. Aldarron, Ta. I was not objecting to a certain degree of waviness. I had the most spikey and multifunctional weapon/armour illustrations in mind. |
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Post by kent on Aug 15, 2011 22:43:31 GMT -6
I said: The sensible way for adventurers to use horses would be secretly, and to convert them to draft animals when approaching towns since without the legends and hints, as you say, it would not occur to others how else a horse might be employed.
Badger2305 said: Something that provides a real advantage is something that the Imperium would want to control itself; "adventurers" are not as socially disengaged to make such a scheme work easily. Their clans would want to know what to do with these creatures...
This is interesting. I have not encountered before a setting where Player Adventurers were not Freebooters, Mercenaries, Outlaws or more rarely Heroes who are not above the Law or Custom or Fraternal Bonds but are independent of scrutiny. In a Fantasy setting we do not expect the State or Clan to have the wherewithal supervise our actions so completely.
Now if the answer to this is yet again "On Tekumel the mindset is thus and so and therefore it would not occur to someone to behave this way..." then I am beginning to feel a constraint on human behavior which I find thin, unbelievable and stagey. I believe the *consequences* for behaving in certain ways may vary wildly from culture to culture but am less convinced that these behaviors do not occur to our protagonists.
I am put in mind of a notorious (to me) Pendragon campaign I played in (one session) where my actions were being prescribed to me by a feminist student in medieval history who told me knights behaved in such and such a fashion because they were chivalrous one and all, which of course is utter horse-shirt, these culturally scripted behaviors are veneers on human behavior which is a chaotic unpredictable seething mess of cravings and compulsions. A knight who behaves perfectly in the presence of his impossible lady for 20 minutes will grab the serving girls ass an hour later out of frustration.
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Post by badger2305 on Aug 15, 2011 23:22:09 GMT -6
This is interesting. I have not encountered before a setting where Player Adventurers were not Freebooters, Mercenaries, Outlaws or more rarely Heroes who are not above the Law or Custom or Fraternal Bonds but are independent of scrutiny. In a Fantasy setting we do not expect the State or Clan to have the wherewithal supervise our actions so completely. Ah, but this isn't straight-up fantasy. It's Sword and Planet, and it's also a very specific worldview, based on Prof. Barker's own experiences. This isn't Aquilonia, it's more Byzantium by way of Tenochtitlan and Kolkata. There's certainly room for "freebooters" - Dave Arneson's PC Captain Harchar was quite the example of this - but even there, Harchar was successful because he was a ship-captain in a clan noted for being merchants - AND smugglers, occasional pirates, and so forth. The key element here is whether or not something provides social or economic advantage; if it does, then other people besides the player-characters are going to sit up and take notice. There's little assumption in Tekumel that the player-characters are the only smart people around. I wonder if you have really read Empire of the Petal Throne - it's quite clear that the entire array of human behavior and thought - good, bad, and otherwise - can be found in Tekumel's history. What you're reacting to is really a strawman argument, however - I've never suggested that people would not work to their own advantage, be crafty, or other examples of self-interested behavior. As a counter-balance, one of the social controls that gets deployed fairly regularly to ensure a low level of deviance is impalement for many if not most crimes, along with slavery as a less final alternative. And all of this depends on social convention - for example, the Concordat ensures that everyone acts in a civil manner to one another, across religious lines - but the Concordat does not apply in Underworlds or in far wildernesses. So do not worry - human vices and the darker side of human behavior are readily found in Tekumel, should you so desire. One last item, forgive me for bringing it up, but Prof. Barker is still quite alive and with us - your reference in your previous post to him in the past tense left me wondering if you were aware of that. My apologies if you already knew that. |
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Post by kent on Aug 16, 2011 0:23:05 GMT -6
The key element here is whether or not something provides social or economic advantage; if it does, then other people besides the player-characters are going to sit up and take notice. There's little assumption in Tekumel that the player-characters are the only smart people around. I don't understand why you drew either of these conclusions from what I said since I didn't imply anything that could make these responses sensible. What I was trying to get across is that for those of us who read more widely than Prof Barker's EPT it is conceivable that some prescriptions on behavior in Tekumel may be invalidated on the grounds that a broad understanding of human nature legitimises many actions that may not fit in with intended cultural schema. I was getting the impression, perhaps prematurely, that you were leaning quite quickly on the "On Tekumel one behaves likes so" refrain. One must be careful when delineating the cultural niceties of Tekumel not to unreasonably restrict player freedom. As an illustration I would say we don't need lessons to understand Kurosawa. He is successful in the West because he thinks deeply about human nature and does not overvalue cultural idiosyncrasies of behavior. We may be talking at cross purposes because you are used to players slighting cultural norms on Tekumal while I have experience of DMs inappropriately restricting player behavior because of important stuff they made up. |
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Post by badger2305 on Aug 16, 2011 13:04:06 GMT -6
We may be talking at cross purposes because you are used to players slighting cultural norms on Tekumal while I have experience of DMs inappropriately restricting player behavior because of important stuff they made up. I suspect this is indeed the case, so I will proceed carefully and work backwards. (And please, it's Tekumel; a minor point of courtesy, but I would appreciate it with gratitude.) I was getting the impression, perhaps prematurely, that you were leaning quite quickly on the "On Tekumel one behaves likes so" refrain. One must be careful when delineating the cultural niceties of Tekumel not to unreasonably restrict player freedom. If I understand you, what you are objecting to is a DM saying to you, "well, your character wouldn't think that way, or come up with that idea, etc." That's perfectly fair. To be frank, Prof. Barker never stops a player from doing whatever they wanted to do. In my past experience, he would make people go through all of the steps to "invent" something, or try something else that they wanted to do. What he would do was have everybody around the player react to what the player was up to. So if the player has something potentially valuable, their clan, temple, competitors, and the Imperium might all want in on the action. The higher the status of their character, the more likely the player would have enough resources, supporters and independence to do what they wanted. But the player characters in EPT aren't in a social vacuum, with lots of individual independence. There are social expectations, and often times people of higher status who may be helpful - or the reverse. To quote Prof. Barker from The Dragon #11: What I was trying to get across is that for those of us who read more widely than Prof Barker's EPT it is conceivable that some prescriptions on behavior in Tekumel may be invalidated on the grounds that a broad understanding of human nature legitimises many actions that may not fit in with intended cultural schema. Hmm. I think this is where some of the confusion may lie. If I understand you, you are saying that social and cultural norms that are predicated in the "secondary world" of Tekumel may not be defensible as legitimate or believable, since human nature can lead to behavior outside of those norms. Is that correct? On the individual level, social behavior varies and yet there are distinguishable patterns when considered in aggregate. In any society, there are people who fit the cultural norm and others who do not. There are a ton of business management texts that extol the virtues of innovators while simultaneously warning about the dangers of rocking the boat. Tekumel is no different in that regard; there are always schemers, plotters, innovators, and others all sorted out along Merton's strain theory of social deviance. But you can't stop there at the individual level, you need to step up to the societal level, where we might follow Max Weber and draw a distinction between traditional and rationally-based societies. For Prof. Barker, the societies of the Five Empires - like those of actual human history for four and a half millenia - are traditional in character, with very strong social institutions that maintain them that way. This stands in contrast to a Western view of the world, which emphasizes rationality, efficiency, self-sacrifice for later gain, reward of innovation, etc. So players coming from this modern worldview sometimes have difficulty with intricate, traditionally-oriented cultures, and how that orientation affects social norms. I must admit, it is relatively easy for me to grasp this distinction, but it is also true that I teach university students every semester who do not understand these concepts applied to societies here on Earth any more than gamers confronting the societies of Tekumel. (I apologize for making use of my sociological background in responding, but I could not help but see the relevance to our discussion.) In all of this, we could debate the effects of magic, the Gods, and other completely fantastical elements and how they might change the social and historical milieux of Tekumel - all to no end since we will never have reliable data with which to evaluate these claims. It's also perfectly possible to simply not want to deal with societies as postulated by Prof. Barker. You can even take that a step further, and introduce some of the hypothetical changes we have been discussing. However, such a response is essentially stepping away from the vision of the world as presented by Prof. Barker. In the end, however, once you've bought it, it's your game - do with it what you like. That's what Prof. Barker wants you to do. |
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rleduc
Level 3 Conjurer
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Post by rleduc on Aug 16, 2011 15:18:43 GMT -6
Perhaps to be concrete, I could see a Player Character being hell bent on developing the horse, making endless sacrifices in pursuit of his goal, succeeding, and then not being able to get anyone important to pay attention. The Sakbe Roads end up being too crowded with foot traffic to make much speed on horseback, Chlen pull more weight and are less prone to injury, the Generals are too obtuse/tradition bound to see use in cavalry (or magic negates the advantage). So it ends up being mostly for naught.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2011 15:39:57 GMT -6
There are really smart folks posting here, so I hesitate to join the discussion, but I had a thought ...
Perhaps a "real world" parallel might be feudal Japan? The introduction of the firearm into warfare was highly resisted for a long time before General what's-his-name (Tokugawa? don't recall) used them to gain the Shogunate.
Granted, there were a variety of factors in play to limit acceptance of firearms, but nonetheless they were not quickly accepted. In spite of their obvious (to our way of thinking) advantages.
Just sayin'.
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Post by aldarron on Aug 17, 2011 10:25:13 GMT -6
The key element here is whether or not something provides social or economic advantage; if it does, then other people besides the player-characters are going to sit up and take notice. There's little assumption in Tekumel that the player-characters are the only smart people around. I don't understand why you drew either of these conclusions from what I said since I didn't imply anything that could make these responses sensible. Disagree: both answers appear both relevant and revealing, but this: ...We may be talking at cross purposes because you are used to players slighting cultural norms on Tekumal while I have experience of DMs inappropriately restricting player behavior because of important stuff they made up. would seem to be the case, and it is definetly an important point to clear up. Neither Victor in his statements, nor the EPT rules as written, place constraints on agency, they do however recognize behavior on Tekumel is contextualized within clan and society, allegance and status. As you observed, EPT is different from western (indoeuropean) based fantasy tropes. More like ancient sumeria/babylonia (code of Hammurabi), , meso-america, caste society india etc. EPT is a world of deeply embeded and enforced social relationships, of meaningful hierarchy, of suki and coor and peerage. The hero of Tekumel is not a Cú Chulainn so much as a Katsumoto. (as noted by DuBeers) What I was trying to get across is that for those of us who read more widely than Prof Barker's EPT it is conceivable that some prescriptions on behavior in Tekumel may be invalidated on the grounds that a broad understanding of human nature legitimises many actions that may not fit in with intended cultural schema. I was getting the impression, perhaps prematurely, that you were leaning quite quickly on the "On Tekumel one behaves likes so" refrain. One must be careful when delineating the cultural niceties of Tekumel not to unreasonably restrict player freedom. True that! While any number of things might well occur to a Player Character, the consequences of their actions within the social web would also be very carefully considered. It may be entirely possible that in a conservative and powerful social structure, the bringer of change, regardless of the objective value of such, is ostracized, alienated, killed; the Shogun destroys the guns, and all the gunsmiths with them. In game terms, (any RPG) this means the player should ask themselves first, if their character would think of X. It's not always a straightforward yes. How many people think of ditching the QWERTY system or even consider that it might not be good?, Or in D&D terms, is it likely that a medieval peasant character would avoid drinking water from a lead cup, or pour alcohol on a wound? The idea of riding horses is a good example for this too. We now think riding horses is a great thing for sure, but it is instructive to point out that horses and humans were together for tens of thousands of years before they were domesticated - people thought of them as food. Still, for literally thousands of years after domestication, they still were not saddled and ridden as we think of it, they were harnessed and used to pull chariots and carts. Size of the animals was partly the issue, as was the social stigma associated with sitting your ass on an ass. Supposing the player decides it is perfectly reasonable for their character to think of doing whatever it is, riding a horse maybe, because, as you suggested, they saw an ancient picture of people on horseback, for example, or maybe the character is just some sort of imaginative maverick, whatever. I'm 100% with you that no Referee should feel obligated to stiffle player agency or enforce prescriptive behavior, but it is equally encumbent on the Ref to know and communicate what the character might reasonably expect the in game consequences to be. In EPTs cultures of tight and dense social norms, consequences there may be aplenty. |
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Post by kent on Aug 17, 2011 14:40:52 GMT -6
I have read the consistently good points above and think it is important not to discuss an issue to exhaustion as on forums discussions tend to spiral outwards away from the initial observation.
What I have taken from the above discussion is a qualified agreement with a lesson I learned many years ago. I have always created my own material and never once used a published module. In the early days I was insistent that players learn and abide by various behaviors I had prescribed for my own races and classes in the world. I am almost never a player but on the rare occasion I have been I found this type of restriction or guidance from a DM just as odious as being on the receiving end of Storytime.
I realised that the tension between plausible behavior in a contrived world and player licence to be creative is not even a matter resolved with balance but only with complete player freedom, letting them off the leash as they say.
In the end I found peace, if I can be philosophical for a moment, when with age I realised how elastic and universal human nature is so that many fantastical prescriptions are in fact illegitimate or needlessly fussy. Shakespeare helps with this. Historical or macro generalisations are the killer, for example, one might hear a historian describe Ireland as a pious Catholic country in the middle of the last century but the truth is piety and Church loathing existed side by side a reality that is resistant of generalisation.
Ultimately players who are diligent, intelligent and enthusiastic are requisite to the peace of mind of any creative DM. The DM describes his world and hopes the players are adept.
I think this is very relevant to Prof Barker's Tekumel particularly when he is not at the table to awe the players.
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Post by greentongue on Nov 2, 2015 12:52:41 GMT -6
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Post by captainjapan on Oct 31, 2019 15:54:36 GMT -6
Forgive me if this question has already been posted elsewhere, but is there any difference mechanically between EPT and OD&D? Are there any substantial rules changes from base d&d or greyhawk?
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Baron
Level 4 Theurgist
Invincible Overlord
Posts: 119
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Post by Baron on Oct 31, 2019 15:59:15 GMT -6
Yes, there are differences in the mechanics. They certainly don't present an insurmountable obstacle to playing EPT as written. You could simply mingle the OD&D and EPT rules together to make your optimum compromise. (Assuming you like what you see in EPT.) Personally, since I prefer 1st ed AD&D anyway, I just looked to EPT for inspiration and then created my own house rules for gaming in Tekumel. Since you can get EPT as an inexpensive pdf on Drivethru, I'd strongly suggest you grab it and see what you think. In any case, don't hesitate, get a Tekumel game started!
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Post by captainjapan on Oct 31, 2019 16:40:15 GMT -6
That's what I thought; that the setting was the meat of it. I was just wondering if Barker had slipped in any novel mechanics, himself. I'm not sure how much roleplaying experience he had before he encountered dnd. Maybe not enough to form an opinion on the nuts and bolts of the rules?
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Baron
Level 4 Theurgist
Invincible Overlord
Posts: 119
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Post by Baron on Oct 31, 2019 16:47:07 GMT -6
Well, he gamed with Dave Arneson, and what actually got published as EPT was influenced by TSR. It's not that far from the published OD&D. (But then, you can look at something like Metamorphosis Alpha, and it's not really that far from OD&D either. That's what you get for being in the early phase of a new type of game.)
I guess the major difference I recall from EPT is that each class gets these extra skills or spells as they move up in level. And the way it's written, fighters all start out knowing certain weapons, and as they increase in levels they all add new weapons. It's a little artificial, I suppose, but if you look at it as an abstraction, it's not that big of a deal.
In any case, the overall structure and terminology is very similar to OD&D. Really, for ten bucks, just pick up the pdf. It's a good read for the background, monsters and items, even if you never use it.
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Post by derv on Oct 31, 2019 17:06:34 GMT -6
That's what I thought; that the setting was the meat of it. I was just wondering if Barker had slipped in any novel mechanics, himself. I'm not sure how much roleplaying experience he had before he encountered dnd. Maybe not enough to form an opinion on the nuts and bolts of the rules? Yes, there are subtle differences in the mechanics. Though the similarities are substantial. There are three "professions"- warrior, priest, magician. Abilities are referred to as Talents. There are six (ST, IN, CON, DEX, Psychic, Comeliness). They are determined using percentiles. As mentioned EPT uses a skills system and spells are treated as a skill. You can cast a spell once per day. Barker includes a chance of failure based on character level and psychic talent. This is a percentile roll. There is a d20 combat table similar to OD&D. Barker also includes a "Damage Dice" table. Essentially you can roll more dice for damage at higher levels against lower level opponents. Well, there's a few examples for you. |
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