Fighting Man Sub-Classes, Opinions?

[darkling]

So in preparation for an upcoming pulp fantasy campaign I have been thinking a bit about how to fold a few extra abilities into the base classes (since there are no demi-humans in the game world and I still want my players to feel that they have variety). So I decided I was going to craft sub-classes of Fighting Man very similar to the Paladin (although notably Paladins won't be allowed since I don't think they fit with the Howardian theme I am shooting for).

The particulars aren't really that important as I am more interested in what you guys think of the general principle. But to give a gloss: there are three subclasses, each one requiring a 15 or more in one of the three non-prime requisite ability scores. Each sub-class gets one or more special abilities, offset by having to wear lighter armor (and in some cases forego shields) to use those abilities (however they always can plate up and function as a normal Fighting Man), if your character qualifies for two or three subclasses then (After I check your dice for weights ) you choose which one to use for this adventure at the beginning of the adventure like an elf. Importantly they function as a Fighting Man in all ways other than their special abilities, so strength is still the Prime Requisite.

I think this gives a nice versatility to the class and allows for a couple of extra roles to be filled. Plus I usually have players who worry about their Fighting Men being too much the same.

[/b]
[li] The three core classes are all the variation D&D needs.
[/li][li] Sub-classes are a good idea that make fighters more versatile.
[/li][li] Sub-classes are a good idea but every character class should get them.
[/li][li] Just go ahead and make an entirely new class!
[/li][li] Variety is the spice of life! BOTH sub-classes and new classes!
[/li][/ul]

[tombowings]

For my campaign, I've bee trying something new. I started with the three core OD&D class (plus demi-humans). From there, it was up to the players to suggest and help create anything else they wanted to play. Here's what we ended up with:

• Thief (as per Greyhawk)
  
• Earth Man (pulled together a bunch of skills from Terminal Space)
  
• Paladin (as per Greyhawk)
  

Other than that, those three classes went pretty far, but there's always room for some variation and new ideas. Honestly, though, your players will tell you if they'd like to play something different and it's pretty easy to bend the rules to their desires.

[Azafuse]

Jul 9, 2011 11:10:54 GMT -6 darkling said:

[/b]
[li] The three core classes are all the variation D&D needs.
[/li][li] Sub-classes are a good idea that make fighters more versatile.
[/li][li] Sub-classes are a good idea but every character class should get them.
[/li][li] Just go ahead and make an entirely new class!
[/li][li] Variety is the spice of life! BOTH sub-classes and new classes!
[/li][/ul][/quote]
Unless Clerics and MUs can do something different requiring specific rules in your campaign - like Shapeshifting or Runecrafting - IMHO you don't need to add sub-classes here.

So I agree with the idea of adding sub-classes only for FMs (also treating Thief as a FM's sub-class).


Talking about requirements, IMHO a 15 in one specific ability score (different from the Prime Requisite) could be very hard to achieve (statistically it's very likely you're going to have only the 3 core classes available for your group).

If possible, I'd like to suggest a variant I use very often in my OD&D/S&W games: when playing a sub-class, just consider the core class' Prime Requisite 4 points lower only regarding XP bonus/malus.

That means a PC with STR 13 is going to get a +5% to earned XP if playing a FM against a +0% to earned XP if playing a sub-class (as per STR 9).


In few words, this approach is kinda AD&Dish (Paladins and Rangers are Fighters with particular benefits, but they need more XP to advance).

[tombowings]

I feel like classes with ability score requirements are NOT standard classes. They are NOT classes the player should be disappointed if the don't quality for. If that mindset cannot be attained by your players, then I would scrap the ability score requirements, write up a bunch of extra abilities for the fighter, put them on a d12 table, and have the player roll for their boon:

1. Squire (free, loyal retainer)
2. Family Heirloom (magic item)
3. etc.

[aldarron]

No to new classes, unless you are inventing some new form of magic.
Yes to sub classes.
Keep EXP, primes, all that stuff the same. mix and match old and new abilities. Perhaps there are clerics who are trained as spies, loosing some spells but gaining pick locks and hide in shadows. Perhaps you want an archer character, so the character gains a bonus in archery but losses the use of a shield. etc.

[calithena]

I tend towards "variety is the spice of life" in a regular D&D campaign, but if you want to hew to the Howard vibe, subclasses rather than alternate classes make some sense. Although it should be noted - mages seem to fight pretty well in a lot of Howard stories (something that Ron Edwards and Geoffrey McKinney have already noticed, but it bears mentioning). So if you really want to go 'pure Howard' I guess it might require some re-thinking of the MU and Cleric as well.

[darkling]

Thank you all for the great opinions. Keep them coming!

Jul 9, 2011 16:07:01 GMT -6 Azafuse said:

If possible, I'd like to suggest a variant I use very often in my OD&D/S&W games: when playing a sub-class, just consider the core class' Prime Requisite 4 points lower only regarding XP bonus/malus.

That means a PC with STR 13 is going to get a +5% to earned XP if playing a FM against a +0% to earned XP if playing a sub-class (as per STR 9).


In few words, this approach is kinda AD&Dish (Paladins and Rangers are Fighters with particular benefits, but they need more XP to advance).

I particularly like this idea. It makes for the simple choice between a faster advancement and more complexity which is easy to understand for the player and easy to explain in world. Although I would probably still require at least a 9 in the subclass associated attribute.

Jul 9, 2011 21:04:55 GMT -6 calithena said:

I tend towards "variety is the spice of life" in a regular D&D campaign, but if you want to hew to the Howard vibe, subclasses rather than alternate classes make some sense. Although it should be noted - mages seem to fight pretty well in a lot of Howard stories (something that Ron Edwards and Geoffrey McKinney have already noticed, but it bears mentioning). So if you really want to go 'pure Howard' I guess it might require some re-thinking of the MU and Cleric as well.

Don't worry. They are getting an extensive rethinking (as are several other points of the system). But the changes to those classes (MU in particular) stray a bit far afield and are very genre oriented, so I will probably post mechanics and questions on those over in the Howard sub-forum. The idea of Fighting Man sub-classes on the other hand has a bit more general applicability and will probably carry over into most of my future D&D games.

[Deleted]

You can find a number of existing OD&D subclasses in the pages of the supplement booklets, The Strategic Review and The Dragon to work with or use as a base of comparison.

Greyhawk = Paladin, Thief
Blackmoor = Assassin, Monk
Eldritch Wizardry = Druid
SR2 = Ranger
SR4 = Illusionist
SR6 = Bard
TD3 = several "unofficial" subclasses

Looking over these may help you develop some of your own, or inspire you to tweak what is already there to fit your needs.

[oldkat]

I like variety in fighting men; not so much for spell-casters (to complex). Thus, i vote for at least 6-12 versions of the Fighting Man.

[darkling]

Doing the writeup for the handout I'm going to give to my players and I thought this would be as good a time as any to expound on the subclasses. First a quick note: All the below applies to a 10 level system. Advancement beyond tenth level is handled differently and neither hit dice nor class abilities increase.

The current theory holds that to take a subclass you have to have at least a 9 in the associated ability score and take a 5% penalty to earned experience. That might change. Presumable you can stack as many of these as you want for a cumulative penalty to XP (e.g. Conan is probably all three).

-The Fighting Man (Renamed: Adventurer) functions pretty much the way you know and love. It has a cool perk but I am not going into detail here. They advance faster than all their fellows due to not taking a penalty to earned XP.

-The Rogue (Dexterity based) is not a thief per se. All skill like things are handled through a combination of background and ability checks, and backstabs work for any character who gets a drop on a monster. What he is, is a well-prepared, light armor fighter. The Rogue has three class abilities. Danger Sense gives a chance to sense traps, ambushes, secret doors, etc. This is rather like the Elf special ability re: secret doors. In no way does this identify what triggers the sense, just that something is out of place and the party might want to proceed with caution. Dabbler allows the Rogue to attempt to use scrolls and other magic items restricted to other classes and alignments unreliably and with a chance they blow up in his face (we are still working on the exact mechanic). Finally, Evasion allows a rogue wearing nothing heavier than leather armor to take no damage on a successful saving throw against attacks that give a save for half damage (like dragon's breath) and half damage on a failed saving throw.

-The Barbarian (Constitution based, I really wish there were a better name for this sub-class and am open to suggestions) is the enduring heavy hitter. Hearty grants two rolls on all attempts to withstand adversity (which scale a bit differently and never become guaranteed) and the Barbarian takes the better of the two. Blood Rage: at any time while wearing chain or lighter armor, after a Barbarian is hit in a fight, he may enter a Blood Rage. In Blood Rage the Barbarian gains a bonus to hit and damage equal to half his level, but can take no other actions than those directly related to attacking the creature that hit him. Once that creature is dead he must select another enemy as the target of his rage and proceed till no enemies remain. Without a magical means to calm him the barbarian will be completely incapable of withdrawing from the fight no matter how dire it may become.

-The Warlord (Charisma based) has only one ability. This ability does not have a strict armor restriction. Leadership affects the entire party. Normally the party uses the initiative roll and exploration turn movement speed of its worst member. Leadership allows the warlord (providing he can both be heard and seen by the entire party) to allow the party to move at his (unaltered by magic) movement speed during the exploration turn (so it might be beneficial for a warlord to don lighter armor to hasten the party), and for the party to use the initiative of its best member. It also grants the extraordinary ability to force a re-roll on morale rolls (for either allies or enemies) or saving throws against mind affecting abilities a number of times per day equal to half the Warlord's level (but only once for any particular roll).

-The Cultist (not ability score based, setting specific, open to any class) is only mentioned here in vague detail as it is campaign world specific. In the setting I am using only greater powers can grant divine abilities of the caliber used by the Cleric class, but there are still a plethora of elder ones and demons. So a character can choose to become a dedicated cultist to any one of these entities. His alignment must match the entity, he must undergo a specific initiation ritual, and not 'sin' in its eyes. In exchange he receives one power (not unlike as to domain powers from 3e) that varies based on the granter. (Note that clerics can take the cultist subclass if their deity has specific avatars or saints associated with it. E.g. I could be a Cleric of Nyarlathotep and a cultist of the Black Pharaoh).

---

So that's really a very rough draft as I try to pull my thoughts together. Feedback is appreciated, but I can't promise I will adopt suggestions.

[tombowings]

Cool, I can see the rogue's danger sense ability being a lot of fun in play.

Maybe "Berserker" or "Marauder" rather than barbarian.

Even if they are very setting specific, I'd like to see you magic-user classes as well.

[thorswulf]

I like the cultist idea, it gives it some definate flavor! As far as renaming the barbarian class I'd go with berserker or call it blood rager or something similar. Hey maybe a follower of the Red Way, or Bloody Road would sound good?

[darkling]

Jul 23, 2011 14:19:00 GMT -6 tombowings said:

Cool, I can see the rogue's danger sense ability being a lot of fun in play.

Maybe "Berserker" or "Marauder" rather than barbarian.

Even if they are very setting specific, I'd like to see you magic-user classes as well.

I plan to post an overview of those classes (Priest & Sorcerer) as well as more details on Cultists and my broader system changes over in the Howard and Hyboria sub-forum (once I start working on them in earnest). Because even though the particular campaign I am doing this work for won't be taking place in Hyboria (with rare exception I tend to feel too constricted running in established worlds, although I do enjoy playing in them), basically all of these rules owe their origin to Howard's work.

Ideally, I will find the time to put the whole system in a .pdf and upload it somewhere.

And I am totally going to use Marauder, thank you!

[aldarron]

Bravo, Bravo, Bravo!!! Great ideas and great models for how to add custom qualities to a class without falling into class infaltion. Another option instead of Armor restrictions and XP penalties could be behavioral requirements, similar to a geas spell, with simlar consequences for failure.

So a paladin, for ex, might gain certain combat advantages, but must refuse all treasure and use of magic items, or whatever. An undead slaying cleric, might gain some powers in realtion to combat against undead, but loose the use of cleric spells - things like that.

[darkling]

I do like the idea of behavior restrictions, but currently they are only part of the Cultist sub-class and the Priest class. If I add other 'holy' sub-classes I will probably use it on them too, but for the current campaign I am planning they don't really apply.

It should also be noted that as development has continued I have shifted the armor restrictions to broader encumbrance restrictions. So for instance even if you are in chain mail you won't necessarily be unencumbered enough to maintain the frenzy of blood rage if you are loaded down like a pack mule. I'm doing my best to not put broad restrictions onto the players with this system mod and approach things with some degree of intuitiveness and parsimony, we'll see how it goes.