Bombards, Catapults, and Arquibusiers

[cooper]

...for the effects of catapults...see the section on sieges.

refering to bombards...These weapons are usually used only in sieges.

...sieges should be used with rules for man-to-man combat.

In my battle of the 5 armies hypothetical, there is a scene where the dwarves push a boulder onto a bunch of orcs, I treated this boulder as a heavy catapult shot which has a diameter of 3 1/2 inches; all within these 3 1/2" are automatically killed. At a 1" inch base this was 3 units of goblins (60 goblins).

It occurs to me that I was wrong. Very wrong. The rules for catapults and bombards is in man-to-man. a catapult will only kill a few men, it was not used to cause mass destruction of men, but of buildings. A bombard can kill more of course because it will bounce. If you want to kill a bunch of men, you need a machine gun or a super-hero with 8 attacks per round.

What does this mean for the fireball spell of the wizard? Perhpas swords and spells wasn't a radically weaker fireball than what we have come to expect. The wizard was just a catapult not Shiva goddess of death. A wizard can kill a few men per turn, but can knock down a castle wall, but an 8th level hero can kill 8 men per turn. The power differential isn't that great really.

What do you all make of this?

Arquibusiers? Unrelated subject, but has anyone noticed how deadly they are? 5 units of gunmen roll 5d6/5-6 at long range, 5d6/4-6 at medium range and 5d6/2-6 at short range. If they have a wall they cannot miss at short range (unless the target is under cover). This means 5 units of gunmen are almost twice as powerful as 20 units of bowmen at short range vs. fully armored foes!

New D&D rule for guns:

Roll a 1d6 for every round of gunfire a gun is capable of. Muskets/arquibus is 1. cowboy gun is 6. An automatic machine gun rate of fire can be 2 (snap shoot) up to 5 (deliberate) 10-20 (rapid fire -1 penalty) 30-40 (intense fire -2 penalty) the gun must make an item save or explode for 3d6 damage called a "cook off".

There is no armor protection nor AC check as a bullet goes through plate as well as it goes through leather. A magic shield will act as partial cover however.


example: a cowboy in king arthur's court pulls out his six shooter and attempts to put holes in the black knight. He is at medium range and decides to snap shoot two shots. He rolls 2d6/4-6. on a roll of 4, 5, or 6 it is a hit and each bullet does 1d6 damage.

[chicagowiz]

In my Modern OD&D game, I ignore armor above AC8 for firearms, ruling that they may give a small ablative/cushioning effect.

[cooper]

very interesting chicagowiz. I guess it's kind of what I do with allowing shields to act as partial cover.

here's some more interesting information.

1 cubic foot of stone is roughly 150 lbs. A boulder 10' in diameter would weight roughly 25,000 lbs. No giant is going to do anything like throw that 200'.

The size of stones of roman catapults:

When the torsion principle was perfected, it became possible to fire a stone weighting as much as 78 kilograms. Indeed, the Roman military engineer Vitruvius gives dimensions for catapults firing stones as heavy as 162 kilograms, although such giant machines may never have been actually constructed. More typical machines fired balls weighing from 13 to 26 kilograms.

The average size and range of a catapult missile: "The longest recorded range for a catapult firing an arrow of the ordinary size, about 70 centimeters, was about 640 meters, and there is some reason to believe the claim was not inflated."

The largest Bombard in the world Was the "tzar's cannon" in red square which is about 2 1/2" feet in diameter.

So, in CHAINMAIL a small catapult is 2' feet accross and a large is 3 1/2' which is quite generous. What's interesting about this, is that the wizards fireball is suppose to be the same size as a catapult shot, so I don't know where the idea first came from that a wizards fireball was 30 feet across. My guess is confusion. catapults were 1:1 scale in chainmail, but was surrounded by 1:20 scale rules, so some people mistakenly assumed 2" meant twenty yards and not 2 feet.

*upon further reflection, I have edited my initial posts and revised wizard fireball/lightining bolt lethality.

[cooper]

Delving deeper into inches in the game. we have mass scale which is 1" = 10 yards. But this can't hold true in Man to Man siege rules. As 1" represents 10 men standing in a row for combat purposes. In Man to Man 1" would represent 1 man. Let's look to Swords and Spells for what gygax tells us:

In swords and spells, gygax recommended 5/8" figure of men, orcs, elves and dwarves at 10 men to 10 yards. This would give us 1 man to 1 yard or more specifically, a man taking up 5/8" of 1 yard (3 feet) or 22.5 inches for a man wielding a small or thrusting weapon like a short sword or spear. A long sword requires a 3/4" base as does slightly larger than man sized creatures (bugbear or lion), so our elf armed with a longsword takes up 27 inches or just over 2 feet to fight properly.

So 4 elves armed with longswords or 5 elves armed with spears or short swords can fight in a 10' corridor.

However! this only applies to fighting in formation with like troops. An open attack order requires 3 feet (1") between allies which would give us 3 elves armed with longswords or daggers could fight side by side.

So, in MtM 1" is 27 inches (or lets round up to 1 yard or 3 feet.)

so mass combat 1" = 10 yards/MtM 1" = 1 yard. This makes sense as we are going from 1:10 to 1:1. This means that a catapult or fireball spell from a wizard average diameter of damage is about 10 square feet. A Lightning bolt is 3/4" and 6" long. or 2 feet wide by 18 feet long (6 yards). There are "mass combat" spells and "individual spells" spells that specifically refer to "units" like sleep, or massamorph refer to "units" effect. This is 1:10 scale. spells given in inches is MtM scale. the fireball was never originally intended to be 30 feet in diameter, partly because it could be cast every round.

miniature base size 1:1
man sized/dagger or spear: 5/8th" or 22.5 inches (1 foot 10 1/2" wide)
hobgoblin sized/long sword: 3/4" or 27 inches (2 feet 3" wide)
bugbear & horse sized/bastard sword: 1" (3 feet wide)
ogre & bear sized/ 2 handed sword 1-3/8" or (4 feet 2 1/2" wide)
giants griffons: 1-5/8th" or (4 feet 10 1/2" wide)

small catapult: 2" or 6 feet diameter damage.
large catapult: 3 1/2" or 10 feet 6" diameter damage
lightning bolt: 2 feet 3" wide and 18 feet long.
fireball: 3 1/2" or 10 feet 6" diameter damage.
cloud kill: 9x18x9 feet.
red dragon breath: 1/2" at base 3" at end and 9" long: 1-1/2 feet at base 9 feet wide at end and 27 feet long.

so things like catapults can kill about 2-5 men or 1-3 giant at a time (again the main purpose of catapults isn't mass slaughter, but destroying walls). A dragons breath could destroy two whole units (20 men) easily though.

in 1:10 scale these would be the numbers:
unit of men with spears: 18 feet 9" x 18 feet 9"
unit of hobglns or men with swords: 22 feet 6" x 22 feet 6"
unit of horse or bugbears or bastard swords: 30 feet x 30 feet
unit of ogres or bears or 2 handed swords: 33 feet 9" x 33 feet 9"
unit of ogres or griffons: 48 feet x 48 feet



So, instead of buying miniatures, all you have to do is cut wood blocks (or cardboard paper) out using the correct inches. A 5/8" inch block of wood with 10 dots on it represents 10 spearmen, a 5/8" inch block of wood with only 1 dot on it would represent a hero with a spear. Or save the actual miniatures for hero and individual monsters only.



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[Matthew]

Heh, good point on the fire ball spell. I guess it is important to remember that if they were used in 1:10 scale, one catapult model would represent ten actual catapults. I am certainly happier with the idea that a fire ball has a radius of six feet (covering about 16 combat squares), rather than twenty feet (covering about 120 combat squares).

Fire Ball Six Feet Radius




Fire Ball Twenty Feet Radius

[cooper]

What's occurred to me Matthew-, is that inspiration for "outdoor" and "indoor" scale was actually "mass combat" scale and "man to man" scale.

Using a ruler I've show a 1:10 scale of a 5/8" troop of men-at-arms next to a 1-5/8" scale troop of giants (the upper right giant I've made a dragon" to show what 9x3 breath weapon looks like. and next to it I've "zoomed in" as it were to a 1:1 scale of a 5/8" hero standing next to a 1-5/8" dragon with the 9x3 breath weapon shown. (ignore the catapult I think I got the numbers wrong).




Just as the wizards fireball is not 30 feet in diameter, the 10 HD dragon cannot roast 200 men with a single breath weapon attack. Indeed, in CHAINMAIL the dragon can kill "a hero" or "a giant".

Here is another picture. The black dot represents the implausable idea of the dragon attacking as 1:10 scale in yards.



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I really begining to feel gygax dropped the ball when he converted "mass/individual" to "outdoor/indoor" as he made indoor scale 1/3rd of outdoor scale instead of 1/10th--but crucially he didn't change the time scale to match.

Movement rate of 12' = 120 yards per minute and 1,200 yards in 10 min. A charging character moving at 18' would have a 10 minute mile (1760 yards). This is well within average for a normal man wearing equipment not suited to long distance running (weapons/backpack, boots etc).



What if we made the time values match the scale values of chainmail by injecting one more unit of time?

1 turn = 1 minute (60 seconds)
1 round = 6 seconds
1 segment = 1 second (represented by each pip of the initiative dice)

or perhaps in d&d:

1 turn= 10 minutes
1 round = 1 minute (60 seconds)
1 cycle = 6 seconds
1 segment = 1 second.

so a hero on the battlefield when breaking off from a 5/8" 1:10 man unit to fight a dragon or ogre would switch to cycles and segments

2 yards per segment (1:1)
12 yards per cycle (1:1)
120 yards per round (1:10)
1200 yards per turn (1:10)

The necessity of segments and cycles is that on a 1" = 1 yard playing table, 120 inches is 10 feet! so we can't play in the 1 minute turn in 1:1 scale as nobody plays on tables that large.

[Matthew]

Jun 13, 2011 1:30:06 GMT -6 cooper said:

What's occurred to me Matthew-, is that inspiration for "outdoor" and "indoor" scale was actually "mass combat" scale and "man to man" scale.

I think that has long been self evident, and it is partly why I have argued in the past that at 1:10 scale units were nominally set up in 3 ranks and 3⅓ files. So, for instance, three figures set side by side at 1:10 scale would indicate:



As you can see, that explains why the scale is not reduced to 1:100, but rather to 1:30, and also why 10' = squares of 3⅓' across in the DMG. If you look at Greyhawk and Swords & Spells it is also evident that the weapon spacing rules support the idea. Chain Mail, on the other hand, very likely was designed with the idea of having ranks of 10.

Jun 13, 2011 1:30:06 GMT -6 cooper said:

I really beginning to feel Gygax dropped the ball when he converted "mass/individual" to "outdoor/indoor" as he made indoor scale 1/3rd of outdoor scale instead of 1/10th--but crucially he didn't change the time scale to match.

I think that he basically decided to go his own way. The problem with altering the time scale is that you basically end up saying that combatants fight at different rates depending on the scale we view the game at, which is ridiculous.

Jun 13, 2011 1:30:06 GMT -6 cooper said:

Movement rate of 12' = 120 yards per minute and 1,200 yards in 10 min. A charging character moving at 18' would have a 10 minute mile (1760 yards). This is well within average for a normal man wearing equipment not suited to long distance running (weapons/backpack, boots etc).

Right, as I have noted elsewhere the 7,200 yards an hour is roughly a quick walk, each movement rate corresponding to around:

12" = 4 mph
9" = 3 mph
6" = 2 mph
3" = 1 mph

Jun 13, 2011 1:30:06 GMT -6 cooper said:

What if we made the time values match the scale values of chainmail by injecting one more unit of time?

1 turn = 1 minute (60 seconds)
1 round = 6 seconds
1 segment = 1 second (represented by each pip of the initiative dice)

or perhaps in d&d:

1 turn= 10 minutes
1 round = 1 minute (60 seconds)
1 cycle = 6 seconds
1 segment = 1 second.

so a hero on the battlefield when breaking off from a 5/8" 1:10 man unit to fight a dragon or ogre would switch to cycles and segments

2 yards per segment (1:1)
12 yards per cycle (1:1)
120 yards per round (1:10)
1200 yards per turn (1:10)

The necessity of segments and cycles is that on a 1" = 1 yard playing table, 120 inches is 10 feet! so we can't play in the 1 minute turn in 1:1 scale as nobody plays on tables that large.

I typically use six second rounds, but I would not recommend trying to build a correspondence between the time scales, as you are always left with missile attack issues relating to shooting rates.

[cooper]

I enjoyed your last post.

I think that he basically decided to go his own way. The problem with altering the time scale is that you basically end up saying that combatants fight at different rates depending on the scale we view the game at, which is ridiculous....I typically use six second rounds, but I would not recommend trying to build a correspondence between the time scales, as you are always left with missile attack issues relating to shooting rates.

Actually, I'm not sure this is the case. In 1 turn (60 sec) a wizard would launch a fireball at a castle wall, a dragon could lay waste with his breath, or an archer or unit of archers could fire twice, but a knight or multiple units of knights could go 3 or more rounds (time indeterminant--perhaps 6 sec. each?) of melee, until morale gave way by one side. If you look at it from the realm of d&d, then you shouldn't be able to do it. Wizard gets 1 spell every "round" of melee, archers fire every "round" But in CHAINMAIL the wizard only gets to launch a spell once per minute, the archers 2 arrows per turn, but melee dukes it out with multiple telling blows" during this same amount of time.

Giving a set amount of time to the "round" within the CM turn won't lead to fighting at different rates at different scales. I'm half of mind of saying that a great balance to the power of MU in D&D just might be making the round 6 seconds, but a spell can only be cast once every 60! With the use of fatigue, morale, and limits on movement the only side effect is that fighters and melee types can have as much an impact on a battle as a lobbed fireball.

A 1st level fighter could potentially kill 3 goblin before becoming fatigued. A 5th level fighter could slaughter 15 goblins before the effects of fatigue (-2 AC -1 dmg?) the wizard would kill a similar amount with his 1 fireball. (fighters attack for multiple rounds per turn while the wizard only gets 1 spell per turn).

There is no change between scale in this case all we are doing is assigning actual time to the round in CM.

[Matthew]

Jun 13, 2011 23:12:39 GMT -6 cooper said:

I enjoyed your last post.

Glad to entertain.

Jun 13, 2011 23:12:39 GMT -6 cooper said:

Actually, I'm not sure this is the case. In 1 turn (60 sec) a wizard would launch a fireball at a castle wall, a dragon could lay waste with his breath, or an archer or unit of archers could fire twice, but a knight or multiple units of knights could go 3 or more rounds (time indeterminate--perhaps 6 sec. each?) of melee, until morale gave way by one side. If you look at it from the realm of d&d, then you shouldn't be able to do it. Wizard gets 1 spell every "round" of melee, archers fire every "round" But in CHAINMAIL the wizard only gets to launch a spell once per minute, the archers 2 arrows per turn, but melee dukes it out with multiple telling blows" during this same amount of time.

Giving a set amount of time to the "round" within the CM turn won't lead to fighting at different rates at different scales. I'm half of mind of saying that a great balance to the power of MU in D&D just might be making the round 6 seconds, but a spell can only be cast once every 60! With the use of fatigue, morale, and limits on movement the only side effect is that fighters and melee types can have as much an impact on a battle as a lobbed fireball.

A 1st level fighter could potentially kill 3 goblin before becoming fatigued. A 5th level fighter could slaughter 15 goblins before the effects of fatigue (−2 AC −1 dmg?) the wizard would kill a similar amount with his 1 fireball. (fighters attack for multiple rounds per turn while the wizard only gets 1 spell per turn).

There is no change between scale in this case all we are doing is assigning actual time to the round in CM.

Right, but that is not quite what I am saying. The point I am making is that if you have, for instance, one minute rounds where archers shoot twice per round and footmen move 120 yards per round at a scale of 1:360 (1" = 10 Yards) and you increase the scale to 1:120 (1" = 10 Feet), having footmen move at 120 feet per round, reducing the time scale to 20 seconds per round, then archers must either shoot twice every three rounds or be out of keeping with the scale change. That is to say that if the length of a round is changed, so is the combat rate per round, which is rarely conducive to good game play.

If, on the other hand, you were to fix rates of attack at say 1/per 6 seconds or 1/per 20 seconds, you could multiply up for larger scale conflicts.

[cooper]

Right. Fixed rates.

Catapults and wizards 1x per turn (60 sec)
Archers 2x per turn (if stationary)
Melee once per "round" per level (6 sec) determined by d6 segments.
Move for 12" (1" = yards) segments 2" rounds 12" and turns 120"

Doesn't the above comport with Chainmail individual in addition to mass combat? Unless I'm missing something the only thing I'm really changing is making rounds somewhat "finite".

Extra bonus. If you assume underground exploration and mapping reduces all mvt. Rates to 1" then you end up with 300 feet per 10 minutes to the comparable 240 feet per 10 minutes in dungeons and dragons!

Overland wilderness travel is simply your mvt. Rate in miles per day rounded up to the nearest 5 mile hex.

[Matthew]

The only thing I would say is that (from what I understand) in practice the number of Chain Mail mêlée rounds are likely to be only 2 or 3 because of the way that morale tests are implemented. In many cases it is unlikely to take more than one round for one side to give way and retreat out of combat.

[cooper]

Yeah I thought of that. But ad&d already hand waves this very same problem, fighter swing on segment 2 magic casts spell on segment 3 or whatever and then you skip to the next round, no movement or drinking a potion after your actions are done even if there are like 45 seconds left in the round.

So, if the fighter is done with his opponents within 1" after the 3rd round and there's nothing left to do even though there are 42 second left, you would just move on to the next turn.

Am I tilting at windmills or am I on to something worthwhile?

[Matthew]

Probably tilting at windmills, but it depends what your purpose is; it might well be worth playing AD&D with multiple rounds of mêlée in a single round to see how it plays out. Funnily enough, I remember Axemental saying that was how he and his friends first thought AD&D was supposed to be played, with a segment corresponding to a round of action and spells taking multiple segments to complete. It is probably expecting a bit much of players to sit quietly when their bow toting characters only get two shots off during the course of six "rounds" of mêlée, though (not to mention frustrating for spell casting characters). It sounds playable enough in general, though.

[cooper]

The reduced efficacy of spells in man to man combat would be rationalized by the better HD of wizards in od&d compared to their reduction in the greyhawk supplement, their multiple attacks against normal men and the use of magic swords.

They would be better off memorizing exploration and utility spells ad save fireball for it's intended purpose (shoo-ing off flying dragons and knocking down castle walls).

[delta]

Jun 13, 2011 1:30:06 GMT -6 cooper said:

I really begining to feel gygax dropped the ball when he converted "mass/individual" to "outdoor/indoor" as he made indoor scale 1/3rd of outdoor scale instead of 1/10th--but crucially he didn't change the time scale to match.

I totally agree with what Cooper is saying here. (Very late to the thread, but it's an issue I feel so strongly about, I had to commend it.) This very thing, I think, is possibly the #1 outright broken issue about D&D from the inception -- it's in my "Top 5" important house rules for D&D: deltasdnd.blogspot.com/p/primary-house-rules.html

Along the way, I've made the same observations about siege engines and fireballs (man-to-man scale), and made sketches almost exactly the same as you've made above. The modified interpretation (1"=5', 1 melee round = 10 sec) is also used as an basic assumption in my Book of War mass-combat game, as well: www.oedgames.com/

So: Completely agreed!