arcadayn
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by arcadayn on Jan 16, 2011 8:18:27 GMT -6
I recently opined on the Dragonsfoot forums about the lack of AD&D clones. There seems to be a ton of OD&D, B/X, and BECMI clones, but only OSRIC for AD&D.
Anyway, I have the same question about “kitchen sink” OD&D. Why are there no retro clones attempting to cover OD&D and ALL of its supplements (I would even include the early Strategic Review stuff)? Heck, there’s not even an underground “reformatting”. S&W core has a few cherry picked bits, but still leaves out a ton. I think it would be cool to see something that includes everything.
Has anyone heard of any kind of project like this? Am I the only one interested in such a thing?
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Post by bluskreem on Jan 16, 2011 8:56:50 GMT -6
In think the problem would be trying to figure out what to include. Many of OD&D rules were exclusive of each other. Which combat for do you use? Which hit dice do you use? Which mass combat? Part of the beauty of OD&D is the experimental nature of the rules. Nothing is set in stone.
I've always wanted to use Carcosa Dice with Blackmoor hit locations and Greyhawk Weapon Vs Armor, but I can't imagine actually doing it with out a program aiding me.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 16, 2011 10:32:38 GMT -6
Agreed. AD&D was designed to be "tournament" rules, standardized so that anyone who played AD&D at any convention had the same rules to work from. OD&D was never that way. The boxed set contains ambiguities such as the dual combat system. The supplements were presented as optional. The material in Strategic Review and Dragon doesn't officially exist in the LBB anywhere, and thus are also considered optional to many. Indeed, Gygax claimed in the late 1970's that part of the reason he "abandoned" OD&D to write AD&D was to clean up those issues. Holmes BD&D, Moldvay/Cook B/X, and Mentzer BECMI D&D were in essence the first "clones" of OD&D as they tried to clean up and standardize the game somewhat. There simply isn't one single version to point to and say " this is OD&D!" EDIT: By the way, there are several "reformatting" projects out there. Like this one: members.cox.net/brucemohler/dnd/odnd.html |
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Post by talysman on Jan 16, 2011 11:28:24 GMT -6
The mechanical incompatibilities is certainly a big deal. Another problem is stylistic incompatibilities: some things don't feel right when used together.
For my own cloning project, I'm focusing on the three core books only, but I've mused about creating appendixes that cover bundles of material from the supplements. For example, an urban adventure appendix would cover thieves and assassins (and druids as monsters opposed to civilization;) a high magic appendix would expand the spell levels and add illusionsists; and a weird fantasy appendix would cover psionics and exotic monsters.
But some things I'm going to avoid. For example, I'm not going to do the hit location system from Blackmoor, because I'd rather generalize the much simpler hit location system from Underworld & Wilderness Adventures.
Edit: Oh, as an aside, there are actually more AD&D clones than you realize: Adventures Dark & Deep, Myth & Magic, and For Gold & Glory. Plus, the Advanced Edition Companion for Labyrinth Lord.
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Post by geoffrey on Jan 16, 2011 11:54:32 GMT -6
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Post by Mr. Darke on Jan 16, 2011 16:48:22 GMT -6
S&W Complete is pretty much OD&D+ All Supplements. Oddly enough I like WB/Core better. Complete shows that adding in all OD&D supplements makes the game something between AD&D and what became B/X D&D.
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Post by Falconer on Jan 16, 2011 22:48:52 GMT -6
Probably like many of you, my game of choice is neither pure “OD&D 3lbb only” nor full-blown AD&D, but somewhere in the middle. Obviously many clones are in this territory as well, trying to hit that sweet spot. Still, personally I would rather buy a S&W:WB and an OSRIC hardcover and decide for myself just where that sweet spot lies rather than let someone else find it for me. If that makes sense.
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Post by bluskreem on Jan 17, 2011 0:10:25 GMT -6
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Post by coffee on Jan 17, 2011 2:32:13 GMT -6
Anyway, I have the same question about “kitchen sink” OD&D. Why are there no retro clones attempting to cover OD&D and ALL of its supplements (I would even include the early Strategic Review stuff)? Heck, there’s not even an underground “reformatting”. Wouldn't the Gray Book fit that bill? Seems to me to be a compilation of the 3LBBs, supplements and some SR material. Actually an AD&D light, but still. |
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arcadayn
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by arcadayn on Jan 17, 2011 6:42:01 GMT -6
I guess I'm not necessarily looking for a ruleset to combine all the supplements and LBBs into one cohesive set (which would be near impossible!). Rather, I would like to see something that offers up a replication of all of the options and rules as they were presented BITD. I guess it would be more of a preservation project than anything. coffee - I have yet to see a copy of the Gray Book. Where could I find one? |
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arcadayn
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by arcadayn on Jan 17, 2011 6:45:16 GMT -6
This looks like it might be what I'm looking for! Thanks geoffery! I'll check it out! |
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arcadayn
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by arcadayn on Jan 17, 2011 6:46:52 GMT -6
Edit: Oh, as an aside, there are actually more AD&D clones than you realize: Adventures Dark & Deep, Myth & Magic, and For Gold & Glory. Plus, the Advanced Edition Companion for Labyrinth Lord. I was aware of the AEC, but I'll have to check the others out. Thanks talysman! |
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arcadayn
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by arcadayn on Jan 17, 2011 7:08:00 GMT -6
Edit: Oh, as an aside, there are actually more AD&D clones than you realize: Adventures Dark & Deep, Myth & Magic, and For Gold & Glory. Plus, the Advanced Edition Companion for Labyrinth Lord. I was aware of the AEC, but I'll have to check the others out. Thanks talysman! All 2nd edition clones. Bummer. |
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Post by Falconer on Jan 17, 2011 8:10:03 GMT -6
Adventures Dark & Deep isn’t a 2e clone, the concept is “what would Gary Gygax’s 2e have looked like?”
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Post by coffee on Jan 17, 2011 10:53:42 GMT -6
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arcadayn
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by arcadayn on Jan 17, 2011 14:29:49 GMT -6
Adventures Dark & Deep isn’t a 2e clone, the concept is “what would Gary Gygax’s 2e have looked like?” Oops - I got the wrong impression from my skimming of the site. I'll look into that one closer. Thanks Falconer! |
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arcadayn
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by arcadayn on Jan 17, 2011 14:30:43 GMT -6
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Aplus
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 353
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Post by Aplus on Jan 20, 2011 16:17:45 GMT -6
I was going to mention The Gray Book as well. It's an interesting document.
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Post by RandallS on Jan 20, 2011 21:27:42 GMT -6
Microlite74 plus the material in the second supplement, Wary's Grimoire, would probably be closer to OD&D and supplements than Microlite75. Microlite74 is my attempt redo core 0e in Microlite20 system terms. Microlite75 is 0e, supplements, articles, some third party stuff, my house rules circa 1978, etc. in Microlite20 system terms: what I need to run campaigns in either of my two major campaign worlds (Arn and the Hidden Valley). Wary's Grimoire adds the material from the 0e supplements to Microlite74 without all my house rules and the like you find in Microlite75.
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Post by bluskreem on Jan 20, 2011 22:24:06 GMT -6
Wary's Grimoire adds the material from the 0e supplements to Microlite74 without all my house rules and the like you find in Microlite75. Neat, I never checked out this supplement, thanks. |
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