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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 17, 2011 9:34:18 GMT -6
Instead of keeping track of XP the traditional way (counting gold, monster kills, etc) why not reduce the paperwork by just counting adventures or quests?
Successfull completion of a module could be a quest, or perhaps getting to a good "stopping point" of a larger module.
The XP chart could look something like this:
Level 1 Rookie = 0 quests experience
Level 2 = 1 quest experience
Level 3 = 2 quests experience
Level 4 Hero = 4 quests experience
Level 5 = 8 quests experience
Level 6 = 16 quests experience
Level 7 = 32 quests experience
Level 8 Super Hero = 64 quests experience
and so on.
I mentioned this on the Goodman boards and a poster commented that this is similar to the ROYGBV designations from the Paranoia RPG. I'm pretty sure that Dragonlance SAGA does something like this and the old 1E Boot Hill uses "gunfights" as experience in a manner similar to this, so it's not like it's a totally new and untested idea.
Counting treasure or magic items found also as XP has the side-effect of giving two prizes (the acutal treasure and the XP). Giving XP for casting spells, picking locks, etc, often encourages characters to do needless things just to get the XP. I even played in one game where the XP of a magic item moved with the item (so that if I gave away my backup sword I might lose a level) and this encouraged hourding instead of team play. I suggest it because most XP systems seem to involve a lot of bookkeeping, which I find tedious and takes away from actual play somewhat.
What do you think?
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 17, 2011 10:01:58 GMT -6
That's a big improvement, IMO. I'm trying something quite similar, but based on actual hours spent gaming rather than on quests achieved.
These ideas help prevent nonsense such as:
"I'm 4 xp short of the next level? OK, I look for a farmer's dog to slay."
"You're kidding: I'm 1 xp short? I go hide in an alley and wait for a beggar to walk by. Then I alley-bash him and steal 1 gp."
Etc.
By gaining xp for simply playing the game, there is no temptation there to do stupid things for xp. In fact, the only meta-game effect it has is to give an additional encouragement to show-up frequently for game sessions!
Someone might ask, "But what's to prevent the players from spending the entire 4-hour game session drinking in their rooms in the inn?" That's a problem I never have. We'd all be bored of that within 5 minutes. When we get together to play D&D, we want to play D&D.
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Post by Lord Kilgore on Feb 17, 2011 10:52:08 GMT -6
I'm using (in an oldschool-style homebrew) a Roll to Advance system, which basically assigns a target number on 1d20 to exceed after each session of play in order to advance one level. The target number is based on class, race, and current level, and is modified by XP, which are earned at a rate of one per session. The reasoning is that characters are awarded XP simply for playing and not for in-game success in combat or treasure acquisition. This removes the need to place sufficient XP for characters to find and removes the need for "roleplaying awards." Characters increase their odds of advancing simply by being played. It's basically the "X Quests completed" method above but adjusted for class and race and adding in the variability of a d20 roll. Check out Roll to Advance if interested for a quick summary and PDF. Or the first in a series of posts looking at the system for more in-depth discussion. |
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Post by Professor P on Feb 17, 2011 11:40:59 GMT -6
I'm using (in an oldschool-style homebrew) a Roll to Advance system, which basically assigns a target number on 1d20 to exceed after each session of play in order to advance one level. The target number is based on class, race, and current level, and is modified by XP, which are earned at a rate of one per session. The reasoning is that characters are awarded XP simply for playing and not for in-game success in combat or treasure acquisition. This removes the need to place sufficient XP for characters to find and removes the need for "roleplaying awards." Characters increase their odds of advancing simply by being played. It's basically the "X Quests completed" method above but adjusted for class and race and adding in the variability of a d20 roll. Check out Roll to Advance if interested for a quick summary and PDF. Or the first in a series of posts looking at the system for more in-depth discussion. I had forgotten about your Roll-to-Advance method. I really love it! Have an exalt. |
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Post by 18 Spears on Feb 17, 2011 20:18:58 GMT -6
These ideas help prevent nonsense such as: That isn't nonsense, that's bad DM'ing. I sure wouldn't give XP for such easily gained gold. |
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Post by galadrin on Feb 18, 2011 23:07:39 GMT -6
I noticed your post on the Goodman Games board and I liked the idea there too. It has all the halmarks of XP: giving the players a sense of accomplishment, pacing the growing power of the party, encouraging adventures. My only question would be as to how to handle the little minor things the players do that you feel are worth rewarding. An interesting dialogue or a single heroic act may not be worth an entire point of quest experience, but it certainly should not go unrewarded?
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Post by Professor P on Feb 19, 2011 8:10:35 GMT -6
I noticed your post on the Goodman Games board and I liked the idea there too. It has all the halmarks of XP: giving the players a sense of accomplishment, pacing the growing power of the party, encouraging adventures. My only question would be as to how to handle the little minor things the players do that you feel are worth rewarding. An interesting dialogue or a single heroic act may not be worth an entire point of quest experience, but it certainly should not go unrewarded? If you were using something similar to Lord Kilgore's Roll to Advance, linked above, you could give a one time +1 or +2 to the advancement roll for good roleplaying, accomplishments, etc. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 19, 2011 13:43:13 GMT -6
I'm using (in an oldschool-style homebrew) a Roll to Advance system, which basically assigns a target number on 1d20 to exceed after each session of play in order to advance one level. The target number is based on class, race, and current level, and is modified by XP, which are earned at a rate of one per session. I think I'd want to have the entire party pick one spokesperson to roll once for everyone. That way all of the characters would either advance together or not, rather than having a few lucky/unlucky rolls make some characters a lot higher than other characters. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 19, 2011 16:23:01 GMT -6
I've been wondering whether or not to use this method (or a variation of) for an upcoming game, and a couple of questions are in my mind...
The first thing is that the need to earn larger amounts of XP to reach the next level has traditionally been a big incentive for PCs to delve to deeper dungeon levels. If we take away the XP incentive (by awarding experience to PCs for being "played" at a gaming session) then treasure surely becomes THE motivator for most PCs to delve to deeper dungeon levels. So the referee would have to be especially careful with treasure placement -- and also "rumours of treasure" placement, or treasure map placement. The PCs will need a treasure motivation to delve deeper.
All that is probably a "good thing", except for the noble sorts of PCs who are genuinely other than scoundrels and looters. Specific quest goals would be required to coax these individuals to deeper dungeon levels where the risks are greater.
While that all sounds good in principle, I suspect that XP and "levelling up" will, unfortunately, always be the strongest motivator for some players.
The second thing is; some time back I ran a game where I divided all XP requirements (and awards) in the books by 1000, and discarded any fractions. The idea was to simplify the book-keeping.
Thus, a fighting-Man required 2 XP to reach 2nd level, 4 XP to reach 3rd level, 8 XP to reach 4th level and so on. 1 XP was awarded each gaming session just for "being there", and other awards were also given for treasure and combat.
What I noticed was that (generally) players were unimpressed by small numbers of XP. They would have preferred to write down 1000 XP on their character sheet than 1 XP, even if it meant exactly the same thing.
It seems that smaller numbers tend not to impress (some people), even if it means less book keeping.
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Post by Mike on Apr 26, 2011 6:54:37 GMT -6
When I'm playing T&T and my own system I award XP for time spent in the session; each hour of play is worth 'x' points.
I do like the idea of knocking a few zeros off the XP scale though, as suggested by Waysoftheearth and as put into practice by Simon in his Woodland Warriors series.
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Post by aldarron on Apr 26, 2011 8:20:12 GMT -6
From one Komeradebob on page 5 of this thread: forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?571008-Old-School-Tell-me-what-you-dislike-about-old-school-D-amp-D/page5 "As much as I hate to point to it, Forward...To Adventure! by whatsisname actually probably points the way to a far better advancement system more in line with, and more supportive of, the playstyle of Fad Era D&D by younger players. Very roughly, iiuc, in FtA, advancement occurs as follows: Take the character's current level. Got it? Good. That's how many adventures the character needs to complete to advance to the next level. Done. What does it mean to complete an adventure? Got me. It does seem like a system that would be tricky if you're the sort that really wants ongoing Tolkien Epic style play from step one, but probably an awfully good approach for more sandbox style play with multiple adventure sites and a lot of freedom for players to take their characters inall sorts of directions. It also completely dodges around XP issues like xps for treasure, xps by blowing treasure on hedonism, and weird xps for combat versus xps for treasure at different rates. I mean, it really gets down to: If you show up to play, and your character survives, they get bigger and badder. So come back and play regularly. And, if your character does get dead, you really can start over with a new 1st level character and continue to adenture with folks a level or three higher, and rapidly come up to a similar level quickly (provided you survive). " Interesting... |
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Post by calithena on Apr 26, 2011 12:40:36 GMT -6
I have sometimes used a system where you have to complete x 'adventures' to gain level x.
An 'adventure' is roughly similar to a regular module - a dungeon, overland, or town sequence where risks are taken, roles are played, and something happens.
I sometimes gave bonus 'adventures' for huge treasures, good role-playing, also MVP (the players voted for anyone besides themselves), etc. And if there was a long quest it might count as 2 or 3 'adventures', etc.
Not a bad system really, although I use others sometimes as well.
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Post by blackbarn on Apr 26, 2011 22:11:07 GMT -6
Well, in our games adventures/quests are not so distinct. We many have several irons in the fire at once, and make a little progress in different areas over the course of weeks of play. I guess if every adventure is nicely compartmentalized this would work.
What our current DM has been doing is awarding XP based on major locations explored/discovered, and upon completing large-scale goals. It works very well for an open-ended game.
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Post by Stormcrow on Apr 28, 2011 11:36:29 GMT -6
If you merely have to complete (survive?) X adventures to gain level Y, then it's not really about how well you played, is it? It only comes down to the referee deciding to grace you with an increase in your adventure tally.
By racking up experience points the normal way, you're measuring your actual accomplishments. Regardless of how many adventures you go on, you earn a level when you accomplish X value of worthy deeds.
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Post by Stormcrow on Apr 28, 2011 11:42:33 GMT -6
"I'm 4 xp short of the next level? OK, I look for a farmer's dog to slay." XP is not supposed to simply be a formula by which characters go up levels. It's meant to be handed out by the DM according to the accomplishments of the players. The referee is given guidelines on how to assign XP awards (based on monster HD and gp value of treasure recovered), but it's the referee that hands out XP, not a formula. This is why the original D&D set doesn't give any guidelines for awarding XP for monsters killed: the referee is supposed to hand out what he feels makes sense. Greyhawk's XP by HD table simply helps the DM figure out what a reasonable award would be for a given monster. (And no, the 100 XP per HD figure in the example is not definitive; it was a number plucked out of the air for the sake of an example.) Killing a farmer's dog is not something I, as a referee, would hand out XP for, unless the dog had gone rabid and attacked the party. |
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Post by Mushgnome on Apr 28, 2011 11:58:55 GMT -6
XP is not for the players; it is for me as the DM. If the PCs level up then I can challenge them with more powerful monsters, NPCs, traps, and scenarios.
In other words I'm happy to say "In the 2 months since your last adventure, you've all earned enough XP to reach the next level" if everybody is getting tired of orcs and kobolds and ready to move on to tougher foes.
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Post by tombowings on Apr 28, 2011 12:29:00 GMT -6
XP is not for the players; it is for me as the DM. If the PCs level up then I can challenge them with more powerful monsters, NPCs, traps, and scenarios. In other words I'm happy to say "In the 2 months since your last adventure, you've all earned enough XP to reach the next level" if everybody is getting tired of orcs and kobolds and ready to move on to tougher foes. I think you hit the nail on the head, mushgnome. My solution is running high risk, greater rewards sort of games. If half the party isn't at level 2 by the end of the first adventure (and the other half dead), I feel I've done something wrong. Thinking about, I think my reputation amongst my players that I am a killer DM may actually be correct. Who would have though...? |
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Post by howandwhy99 on Apr 30, 2011 9:54:14 GMT -6
I agree with the above. What I do though is reward XP by class and class actions. It really is only an improvement of class abilities in my game, not character power, so that's what XP rewards are. They are the learning by the character of how to perform the class better.
The quest system gets a thumbs up from me too. I think using this means you really need to know what a "Quest" is in your game. But if a definite completion of an adventure can happen, then getting XP for it sounds good.
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