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Post by DungeonDevil on Jan 22, 2011 22:27:13 GMT -6
I'm fascinated by the concept of Protection Points, and I was wondering how one would include the placement of traps throughout a dungeon in the stocking process. Does Mr. Boggs have a suggestion as how to rank traps in terms of P.P., perhaps by analogy with monster HD? Would one rank them somehow by their deadliness or inconveniencing nature as if they "attacked" like a monster of x HD? TIA.  |
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Post by aldarron on Jan 24, 2011 20:09:18 GMT -6
Hmm, thought provoking... traps (and secret doors, for that matter) are one of those things Arneson didn't talk a lot about. For example, we know there were traps in Blackmoor dungeon but there's no hint of them on the map or in the key. Traps were secrets kept in the mind of the dungeonmaster.
Protection Points weren't meant to cover traps, but I think you have a clever idea of giving a trap a HD deadliness rating and factoring it in to your point total and it would be interesting to see how that would effect stocking. There's a lot I think that could be done with Protection Points. Its one of those aspects of the game that ought to be expanded and developed.
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Post by DungeonDevil on Jan 26, 2011 12:00:08 GMT -6
Protection Points
The DMG, p. 216 gives a small listing of traps and tricks. Upon this I began ruminating on a way to include traps in the application of Protection Points.
I created a matrix as a way to assign point values to the various factors involved. Along the horizontal axis we have three columns labelled "Low", "Med" and "High" for the Danger Factors, while along the vertical axis, the two rows are labelled first "Tricks" and then below that, "Traps".
"Low" Danger Factor tricks/traps have only a small percentage change of maiming or killing characters, say, for argument's sake, 1% to 33%. They have a greater chance of posing an inconvenience, or a mechanism by which the party is forestalled and kept from their mission, than as a physical hazard, or mortal threat.
"Medium" Danger Factor tricks/traps have a greater chance to maim or kill the characters, perhaps in the 34% to 67% range.
"High" Danger Factor tricks/traps have a very great chance to maim or kill the characters, in a range exceeding 67%.
Low lvl tricks are rated at 1.0 Protection Points.
Low lvl traps are rated at 1.5 P.P.
Medium lvl tricks are rated at 2.0 P.P.
Medium lvl traps are rated at 2.5 P.P.
High lvl tricks are rated at 3.0 P.P.
High lvl traps are rated at 3.5 P.P.
Excessively deadly traps, or combination tricks/traps would add their values, as necessary.
After examining the DMG chart on 216 I tried to find a way to broadly categorise the classes of traps, if possible. This is what I have devised thus far, based on their natures:
*Hold/Contain (in empty space)
*Hold/Contain (with danger, e.g. chamber with hungry monster, pit trap with crocs, piranhas, etc.)
*Kill (concussion, compression, penetration, heat, cold, etc.)
*Wound, Maim, Dismember
*Confuse/Disorient (e.g. teleporter?)
*Release Danger (water, sand, beast, gas, etc.)
Can any clever forum members come up with other categories?
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Post by DungeonDevil on Jan 26, 2011 12:04:22 GMT -6
As another brainstorm, it would be fun to come up with "Furnishing Points" to determine how much an area, chamber, etc. is decked out with any remarkable features. Again the tables in the DMG may serve as inspiration. Areas without any Protection Points may instead have Furnishing Points to make those areas interesting for the characters. Areas will have a 3 in 6 (50%) chance of having F.P.'s, while those without any monsters, traps or treasure may have a 4 in 6 chance of some contents. This can be modified to suit referee's taste or dungeon milieu. Just an idea. |
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Post by kesher on Jan 26, 2011 12:26:39 GMT -6
I think you're on to a whole new framework for designing dungeons---what a huge help this could be for those who've never tried to put a dungeon together! I like the percentage chance of trap lethality, too, since it really adheres to the Arnesonian Way... |
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Post by aldarron on Feb 15, 2011 9:21:20 GMT -6
DungeonDevil have you seen this project dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=45933 for stocking Blackmoor Castle? It might be an ideal way to test drive your idea of creating a PP point system for traps and for furnishing. Sadly and surprisingly, the project has recieved very little interest. Bet it would be different if it were Greyhawk castle...  Oh by the by, the list of traps and tricks in the 3lbb's sample dungeon might well be mostly Arnesons and the same in AiF certainly is, if that's of interest to your project. |
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Post by DungeonDevil on Mar 18, 2011 15:03:17 GMT -6
A) I was not aware of that thread. I will eagerly study it! In my reading of FFC, p. 30, I thought DLA's description was a bit odd. On Occupation, he says that at first level has a 1/6 chance; at 3rd lvl a 1/3 chance (i.e. 2/6); at 7th and deeper 50% (i.e. 3/6). That distribution is weird! 1st...1/6 2nd...1/6 too? 3rd...2/6 4th...2/6 too? 5th...2/6 too? 6th...2/6 too? 7+...3/6 Am I understanding the text correctly? As you note in that thread, DLA's system is quirky. In D@D you state that its 3/6 for 3rd lvl which makes more sense. Then DLA states: 1st lvl...5 pts (=5*1) 2nd lvl...15 pts (=5*3) 3rd lvl...15 pts (  ) (=5*3) 4th lvl...25 pts (=5*5) 5th lvl...35 pts (=5*7) 6th lvl...40 pts (=5*8) 7th lvl...50 pts (=5*10) Again a wonky series! A more reasonable progression: 1st lvl...5 pts (=5*1) 2nd lvl...10 pts (=5*2) 3rd lvl...15 pts ( ) (=5*3) 4th lvl...20 pts (=5*4) 5th lvl...25 pts (=5*5) 6th lvl...30 pts (=5*6) 7th lvl...35 pts (=5*7) and so on. He also made a weird statement: "all dice throws were with 10-sided dice". Huh? |
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Post by aldarron on Mar 18, 2011 19:18:12 GMT -6
A) I was not aware of that thread. I will eagerly study it! In my reading of FFC, p. 30, I thought DLA's description was a bit odd. On Occupation, he says that at first level has a 1/6 chance; at 3rd lvl a 1/3 chance (i.e. 2/6); at 7th and deeper 50% (i.e. 3/6). That distribution is weird! 1st...1/6 2nd...1/6 too? 3rd...2/6 4th...2/6 too? 5th...2/6 too? 6th...2/6 too? 7+...3/6 Am I understanding the text correctly? As you note in that thread, DLA's system is quirky. In D@D you state that its 3/6 for 3rd lvl which makes more sense. Coolness. I think Dave's notes in the FFC suffer from him trying to describe a system he used but forgot about. I took what he wrote and then actually compared it carefully to the Blackmoor and Glendower dungeon levels, creatures, etc. and also to his system in AiF. The 3 in 6 chance after third fits what he actually did better. Then DLA states: 1st lvl...5 pts (=5*1) 2nd lvl...15 pts (=5*3) 3rd lvl...15 pts ( ) (=5*3) 4th lvl...25 pts (=5*5) 5th lvl...35 pts (=5*7) 6th lvl...40 pts (=5*8) 7th lvl...50 pts (=5*10) Again a wonky series! A more reasonable progression: 1st lvl...5 pts (=5*1) 2nd lvl...10 pts (=5*2) 3rd lvl...15 pts ( ) (=5*3) 4th lvl...20 pts (=5*4) 5th lvl...25 pts (=5*5) 6th lvl...30 pts (=5*6) 7th lvl...35 pts (=5*7) and so on. He also made a weird statement: "all dice throws were with 10-sided dice". Huh? Heh, welcome to my world! I like your series, that's a reasonable way to approach it. I chose the increase by 10 points per level in D@D partially because it gave higher results which allow for stronger monsters or more monsters, and that seemed to match better the numbers (IIRC) of protection points in the lower levels of Blackmoor dungeon. If you look at Glendower Dungeon (p34) you will see the points per room are pretty high - 17 PP per room on level 1, 25 PP per room on level 2, and 50 PP per room on level 3. However, if you look at the notes for loch Gloomey, its clear that the points Arneson used there do not match any of these systems. They seem to be randomly generated by multiplying 10 times d100 (2d10 read as percentiles) in the J-T map locations or as 10 times 3d6 as in the "Defense of area 30 - 180 Magic Points. Creatures (two six-sided dice): 2) Giant; 3) True Troll; 4) Roc; 5) Air Elemental; 6) Ogre; 7) Basilisk; 8) Goblins; 9) Ghouls; 10) Lycanthrope; 11) Balrog; 12) Dragon." 1980:p61 In this case he first determined the points randomly and then rolled for the creatures. The points told him how strong or how many of the creatures were present. Determing creatures randomly on an encounter chart may be what he meant by the "all dice were 10 sided" but your post has got me reconsidering that notion. In fact, I've noticed that the system as is gives - as you say - wonky numbers when the level has only a few rooms. A 4th level with say, ten rooms will likely have stronger monsters than a 5th level with 3 rooms. and even the point boost in the DaD system does not give the wide range found in Glendower or Loch Gloomin. "points in any given room" seems to mean, as I put it in D@D that every room has a certain point value so you multiply #rooms x point value of rooms on that level to get a total for the level and distribute as you please. Its possible though that once a room is determined to have a monster "all dice were ten sided" meant that you roll a d10 and multiply the result times the stated point value (5pts for a level 1 room). This will still give you some wonky values in some individual cases (a good thing I think), but it won't matter what the room count of the level is. This would also be more in keeping with the random determination of points seen in the Loch Gloomin section. Its definetly an idea worth pursuing.... |
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Post by DungeonDevil on Mar 20, 2011 11:30:25 GMT -6
An apparent lack of rules-uniformity is a clear sign that DLA and friends were always experimenting, restless and always seeking out the optimal way of approaching a problem. In retrospect, we would like to see definite and regular patterns, but as you have pointed out quite lucidly, discerning regularity in this mad stew of primordial playtesting would prove frustrating and perhaps fruitless in the end. After some consideration, I think that the 'danger gauge' for a given location (compounded with the depth of the dungeon), as portrayed by Protection Points, should be augmented by a number representing the time that a locality has been 'wild' or uncleared by heroes, much like a garden returning to a rough, chaotic state in the absence of a sword-wielding Gardener. For example the Blackmoor Dungeons under the castle would be more crowded with monsters while the Heroes were away in their exilement in Lake Gloomy, but perhaps less dangerous when they had returned and were in the process, presumably, of clearing them out. I've been adding some ideas over on the DF "Castle Blackmoor" thread. |
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Post by cooper on Mar 20, 2011 14:14:16 GMT -6
A) I was not aware of that thread. I will eagerly study it! In my reading of FFC, p. 30, I thought DLA's description was a bit odd. On Occupation, he says that at first level has a 1/6 chance; at 3rd lvl a 1/3 chance (i.e. 2/6); at 7th and deeper 50% (i.e. 3/6). That distribution is weird! 1st...1/6 2nd...1/6 too? 3rd...2/6 4th...2/6 too? 5th...2/6 too? 6th...2/6 too? 7+...3/6 Am I understanding the text correctly? As you note in that thread, DLA's system is quirky. In D@D you state that its 3/6 for 3rd lvl which makes more sense. Then DLA states: 1st lvl...5 pts (=5*1) 2nd lvl...15 pts (=5*3) 3rd lvl...15 pts ( ) (=5*3) 4th lvl...25 pts (=5*5) 5th lvl...35 pts (=5*7) 6th lvl...40 pts (=5*8) 7th lvl...50 pts (=5*10) Again a wonky series! A more reasonable progression: 1st lvl...5 pts (=5*1) 2nd lvl...10 pts (=5*2) 3rd lvl...15 pts ( ) (=5*3) 4th lvl...20 pts (=5*4) 5th lvl...25 pts (=5*5) 6th lvl...30 pts (=5*6) 7th lvl...35 pts (=5*7) The desire for uniform or "reasonable" tables is a desire for many people. But power levels are not uniform. the jump at 4th level to me is indicative of the jump from flunky to hero. and superhero-1 at the 7th level of the dungeon. Arneson's 25 points for 4th level and 50 points for 7th level to me looks like the doubling of power of the hero/super hero. The idea in prevalent in early d&d was that you adventured on a dungeon level equal to your character level. |
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Post by aldarron on Mar 20, 2011 16:46:26 GMT -6
The desire for uniform or "reasonable" tables is a desire for many people. But power levels are not uniform. the jump at 4th level to me is indicative of the jump from flunky to hero. and superhero-1 at the 7th level of the dungeon. Arneson's 25 points for 4th level and 50 points for 7th level to me looks like the doubling of power of the hero/super hero. Interesting observation coop. That might indeed have something to do with the system Arneson gave in the FFC. I think the 25 to 50 PP jump in glendower is likely just coincidence. First level is 17 PP and Glendower is a very small dungeon overall. Svenson recalls cleaning it out quickly. The idea in prevalent in early d&d was that you adventured on a dungeon level equal to your character level. Generally true i'm sure, but not for Arneson in the pre D&D days. It was supposed to get somewhat tougher as it went down but he was definetly not thinking in terms of character level = dungeon levels |
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skydyr
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Post by skydyr on Mar 21, 2011 7:39:47 GMT -6
Regarding the placement of traps, I have considered rolling for them randomly much like wandering monsters. That is, if the characters are moving, a 1 on 1d6, say, means a wandering monster, and a 2 means some sort of trap, possibly randomly generated from a table, much like monsters.
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Post by kesher on Mar 21, 2011 8:07:44 GMT -6
Regarding the placement of traps, I have considered rolling for them randomly much like wandering monsters. That is, if the characters are moving, a 1 on 1d6, say, means a wandering monster, and a 2 means some sort of trap, possibly randomly generated from a table, much like monsters. That's a really excellent idea! I love the idea of randomly generating what will then become permanent aspects of the dungeon. |
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Post by DungeonDevil on Mar 21, 2011 18:53:36 GMT -6
As long as they're not WANDERING TRAPS!  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 20:22:23 GMT -6
Or just cutting out all that bothersome dice-rolling and just using "The Dragon" April Fool's article wandering damage!
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Post by DungeonDevil on Mar 21, 2011 21:03:43 GMT -6
Or just cutting out all that bothersome dice-rolling and just using "The Dragon" April Fool's article wandering damage! ;D Dragon 96, p. 46 I've smelled the likes of them before!  |
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Post by kesher on Mar 22, 2011 8:57:53 GMT -6
As long as they're not WANDERING TRAPS! Okay, now I know what table I'm creating for tom's project... |
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Post by DungeonDevil on Mar 22, 2011 11:23:36 GMT -6
The moment I wrote the phrase 'wandering traps' I had this instant vision of some steampunk monstrosity with gears, cogs, wheels and spinning iron claws like a demonic threshing machine rolling through the dungeon. How very Blackmoor! |
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Post by aldarron on Mar 22, 2011 11:33:48 GMT -6
The moment I wrote the phrase 'wandering traps' I had this instant vision of some steampunk monstrosity with gears, cogs, wheels and spinning iron claws like a demonic threshing machine rolling through the dungeon. How very Blackmoor! Heh, I was thinking more along the lines of teleporting traps..... |
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Post by Professor P on Mar 22, 2011 11:41:26 GMT -6
The moment I wrote the phrase 'wandering traps' I had this instant vision of some steampunk monstrosity with gears, cogs, wheels and spinning iron claws like a demonic threshing machine rolling through the dungeon. How very Blackmoor! Kind of like this? (Skip to 1:50) |
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Post by DungeonDevil on Mar 22, 2011 15:49:56 GMT -6
I don't believe I've ever seen Labyrinth before. Yes, that nasty-looking thing will do just nicely. |
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Post by Professor P on Mar 22, 2011 18:35:06 GMT -6
I don't believe I've ever seen Labyrinth before. Yes, that nasty-looking thing will do just nicely. Do yourself a favor and watch it. It's great! |
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Post by DungeonDevil on Mar 23, 2011 0:31:49 GMT -6
Just watched it this evening. It was delightful, save for the cringeworthy musical numbers and the Oddity that is Davie Bowie. Not exactly a "D&D movie" but there are some ideas in it suitable for mining.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2011 4:07:06 GMT -6
By the way, on the subject of wandering traps: Delving Deeper's monster list includes the juggernaut. Basically, it's a medieval steamroller that travels dungeon corridors, crushing everuthing in its path. You can see an excellent picture of it by Mark Allen here: bravehalfling.com/?p=558 |
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) (=5*3)
