Sup. III Melee round combat example.

[cooper]

Edit: Woops, big mistake on my part. This alternate combat system is meant only for missile fire and spells only. It is meant to supplement the normal d6, high roll wins for use with melee.



Hector the human Hero, Themble the elven Theugist, and Burp the human Burgler are confronted with an ogre and 5 goblins.

Round 1

Hector attacks with his sword, Themble casts magic missile at a goblin, Burp--who was knocked and ready, shoots his crossbow. The ogre and the goblins attack as well.

Party initiative: 5
monster: 2
Themble's dexterity is 11+1 (elf)-0(1st level spell) = 12.
Burps dexterity is 17-2 (leather armor)+3 (crossbow ready) = 18


Hector will attack on segment 2 as per his winning initiative roll, looking at our chart Themble's spell will go off in segment 1 and Burps arrow will go off before the movement phase of combat begins and again in post movement.


pre: An arrow strikes a goblin taking it down.
segment: 1 The magic missile kills a goblin right out.
segment: 2 Hector attacks with his sword
segment: 5 ogre and goblins attack (themble is wounded here)
post: Burp gets another arrow because of his high dexterity.



Round 2
Themble casts web 11(dex)+1(elf)-1(2nd level spell)-4(50% wounded)=7.
burp continues with a 18
melee continues at the same time as it occured in the prior round unless more movement takes place.

pre: burp
seg: 2 web spell and hector
seg: 5 monsters
post: burp

[bluskreem]

This is kind of interesting. Eldritch Wizardry has been the most difficult to digest suppliment for OD&D for me, and it's combat tweaks seemed particularly esoteric. I never could quite wrap my head around its use or purpose. Seeing the rules in action clears up much of my confusion.
I wonder if any one has ever done a cover to cover for Sup 3.

[cooper]

Big update, as I had confused some issues regarding melee. Should be fixed and clearer. If anything this system would be great for wizard duels. It also includes adjustments for being wounded (-4 to -6), being in the second rank (-2) 1st-9th level spells (0 to -9), having a weapon in hand (+2), having your wand pointed and ready! (+3), being an elf (+1) etc...


Sample Wizardly Duel

Raistlin finally makes it known to Fistandantilus that he is not who he says he was. Duel commences!

Raistlin dex: 16
Fistandantilus: 14

Raistlin casts lightning bolt, Fistandantilus casts power word kill.

They roll initiative:
Raistlin: 5
Fist: 1

Fistandatlilus has been completely surprised by Raistlin's treachery.

Raistlin 16+4 (complete surprise) - 2 (3rd level spell) = 18
Fist: 14 -2 (surprised) +2 (power word) = 14

pre: raistlin's lightning bolt electrifies the old wizard
pre: fist's spell would have gone here had it not been interrupted.

round 2

fistandantilus might get a penalty this round if his wounds reach 50% etc...
--------------

This could also be a way to allow weapon and armor use by magic users and certainly changes the way an elf would be able to throw spells around as plate mail gives a -6.

[Stormcrow]

I don't think you've got this right at all. There's nothing here about looking at your initiative die to determine segments. I've been trying to make sense of this section today.

"All melee activities, including missile fire, spell casting, movement, and combat [hand-to-hand melee] then are assigned to some—possibly all—part of the melee turn."

Movement is always happens in the six movement segments, and is spread out evenly, as per the table on page 6.

'Actions other than moving or fighting [hand-to-hand melee] are based on the modified dexterity rating..."

So for everything other than moving and hand-to-hand combat, calculate Adjusted Dexterity.

On the first round, all actions other than movement and melee occur according to the table on page 5.

When does melee occur during the first round? Answer: "attacks by combatants [melee fighters] are made whenever the respective parties come within range..." What if the two sides begin the round within melee range? Presumably melee occurs in the pre-movement phase.

For the second round, the book requires recalculating Adjusted Dexterity (probably because things like having a bow nocked and ready to fire no longer apply). "Thereafter, the same pattern is maintained for successive melee rounds." The example seems to mean that you determine the interval between one X and the next X on the table, and extend the same interval into further rounds. The problem is, the example doesn't work:

"If it is determined as of the 2nd melee round that the Adjusted Dexterity of a player-character is in the +15/+19 range..." X on Pre- and X on Post-, "...there is an interval of six parts between his actions..." Well, there are six segments between his actions, not including his actions. "...so that on the 3rd melee round he would act during the 5th movement segment..." Huh? How'd it get to five? "...and on the 4th melee round he would be able to act during the 3rd." So as rounds advance, his action goes down in segment number by 2? It's advancing six positions, leaving only five between actions, non-inclusive?

Presumably, the example sequence would be:
Round 1: Pre- and Post-
Round 2: ?
Round 3: 5
Round 4: 3

But how was the advancement of six segments calculated? "There is an interval of six parts between his actions..." How was that determined? What is the correct sequence for round 2?

Can anyone explain the textual example to me?

[Deleted]

The pre and post action segments should be for round 2 since dex was recalculated after the first round. The rest will never make sense to me as anything else but a bad example.

[Stormcrow]

Mar 8, 2011 15:38:58 GMT -6 @rabbit said:

The pre and post action segments should be for round 2 since dex was recalculated after the first round.

No, the table is clearly labeled as applying specifically to the first round of melee.

[cooper]

When does melee occur during the first round? Answer: "attacks by combatants [melee fighters] are made whenever the respective parties come within range..." What if the two sides begin the round within melee range? Presumably melee occurs in the pre-movement phase.

Stormcrow, what you are refering to is the charging rules (long weapon goes first, opponents meet based on segments of movement in the 6 segment round. Or they may close and not attack the first round. This was explained in Ad&d as well as in the MtM section of chainmail. The EW rules were meant to suppliment the CHAINMAIL mass combat and man to man rules and assumed their use, including order of battle (d6 high roll goes first).

That eldritch wizardry table is a convoluted way of saying that all spells and missile fire takes place as if the attacker had rolled a 3 for initiative. This is then modified by +1/-1 for every 5 points of dexterity.


I just looked through all the 0d&d rules. Every additional and optional rule presented therein made it's way into AD&D with very few, or no adjustments. Ad&d's initiative was not birthed from gygax's head like the zeus from chronos. Gygax took the canon he had already made and added to it. As he did in all aspects of his game.

Given this, let us see what Gygax established with the segment rules he introduced.

..."The question of when various actions take place in a melee round often arises...the melee round has been subdivided into segments...all melee activities, including missile fire, melee, spellcasting, movement...are assigned to some-possibly all, parts of a melee turn.

before this section all a player had was CM mass combat and the MtM weapon speed rules. Let's see what things gygax introduced:

1) melee takes place on the segment of the round indicated by your opponents die. This is not debatable in EW.
2) a spellcaster with average dexterity will cast a 1st level spell on segment 1 of the round.
3) 1st level spells did not adjust when in the round your spell was cast (no initiative penalty, 2nd level spells begin the penalty with a -1, 9th level spells -8)
4) movement is on a per segment basis unrelated to the initiative roll
5) spell level (casting time) above 1 does modify your initiative, but untethered from the initiative roll of your party.

As I read ad&d, gygax made only a few changes to the rules presented in EW.

1) went from the 6 segment round to the 10 segment round, this was obviously done for magic-users as there no longer needs to be a mathematical equation to cram 9 levels of spells into 6 segments. Indeed, telling blows still take place from segments 1-6.
2) weapon vs. casting time was introduced (here I'm willing to hear ideas on how it interacts with the above).
3) further incorporates the weapon class rules from the man to man section in CHAINMAIL (charging rules, longer weapons going first, fast weapons gaining multiple attacks vs. slow, breaking ties etc).
4) he forgot the section on missile weapons...Given that in CHAINMAIL and in EW missile fire takes place after the 1st partial move, it is safe to assume that missile fire in Ad&d goes on segment 3 (or 5) of the round. If you wish to add dexterity adjustment to it, that would comport with men and magic, EW and holmes explaining that dexterity adjusts missile fire.

extrapolated from OSRIC dexterity adjustments to missile weapons
dexterity: 16 +1 segment
dexterity: 17 +2 segments
dexterity: 18 +3 segments (before movement and telling blows occur)

If I may guess at what gygax was thinking when translating EW to Ad&d.

In EW the default spell and missile takes place on segment 3, but 90% of magic users and archers are going to have at least a 10 dexterity (+2 segment adjustment), I think he figured dexterity was a needless step and he might as well just assume everyone had at least a 10 dex and so spells and missile fire begins in segment 1 (as it would in 90% of the cases).

AD&D initiative is to EW as Thac0 is to the attack matrices.

[cooper]

That was a bit of a wall of text I ported over from the new initiative thread over at dragonsfoot. Allow me to be clearer.

1) 6 segment round that matches the d6 initiative dice
2) high roll wins (as per chainmail) if attacker is in melee, you attack on the segment of the dice roll of your opponent (in order to keep backwards compatibility with chainmail)
3) divide your listed movement rate by 6 to determine moves per segment (12' = 2 per segment)
4) spell and missile default is segment 3 modified by +1/-1 for every 5 points of modified dexterity. (this matches CHAINMAIL again where artillary and missile fire took place after 1/2 movement)
5) missile fire will continue every 6 segments (counting pre and post move).

The reason Gygax dropped the dexterity portion of this from Ad&d is because 10 dex is default average, which means 1st level spells and missile fire are going to go on segment 1 anyway.

Please this document I wrote explaining the rules clearly.

[Stormcrow]

Mar 8, 2011 20:26:36 GMT -6 cooper said:

When does melee occur during the first round? Answer: "attacks by combatants [melee fighters] are made whenever the respective parties come within range..." What if the two sides begin the round within melee range? Presumably melee occurs in the pre-movement phase.

Stormcrow, what you are refering to is the charging rules (long weapon goes first, opponents meet based on segments of movement in the 6 segment round. Or they may close and not attack the first round. This was explained in Ad&d as well as in the MtM section of chainmail. The EW rules were meant to suppliment the CHAINMAIL mass combat and man to man rules and assumed their use, including order of battle (d6 high roll goes first).

The alternative initiative system in Eldritch Wizardry never says anything about only applying to charges, and it is explicitly part of the "alternate combat system," not the Chainmail combat system.

That eldritch wizardry table is a convoluted way of saying that all spells and missile fire takes place as if the attacker had rolled a 3 for initiative. This is then modified by +1/-1 for every 5 points of dexterity.

Only if you assume that attacks come on segments shown on the initiative die, which is nowhere attested in Eldritch Wizardry or any book before it.

I just looked through all the 0d&d rules. Every additional and optional rule presented therein made it's way into AD&D with very few, or no adjustments. Ad&d's initiative was not birthed from gygax's head like the zeus from chronos. Gygax took the canon he had already made and added to it. As he did in all aspects of his game.

No, the authors (let's be clear: Gary wasn't the only one) not only added to existing rules, they changed and deleted them as well. We cannot assume that rules in AD&D are necessarily an extension of existing D&D rules.

1) melee takes place on the segment of the round indicated by your opponents die. This is not debatable in EW.

You bet your ass it's debatable! Show me where it says this.

2) a spellcaster with average dexterity will cast a 1st level spell on segment 1 of the round.

Exactly how do you determine this? From what I can see, he should cast that spell on segment 3.

5) spell level (casting time) above 1 does modify your initiative, but untethered from the initiative roll of your party.

No it doesn't. Spell level above 1 modifies your adjusted dexterity score, not your initiative. All of the bonuses and penalties on page 6 of EW modify your dexterity, not initiative.

[cooper]

Look at the chart stormcrow, adjusted dexterity of 10 puts missile fire and spells on segment 1. It's right there clear as day.

How do I know melee attacks take place on the segment rolled by your opponent?

1) high roll wins d6 is the only rule given in odd+Chainmail
2) while it's not mentioned in EW it is mentioned in the DMG and besides the EW chart for spells/missiles doesn't work unless it is implied.

[Stormcrow]

Mar 9, 2011 11:27:26 GMT -6 cooper said:

Look at the chart stormcrow, adjusted dexterity of 10 puts missile fire and spells on segment 1. It's right there clear as day.

Right, sorry, my eyes looked at +0 instead of +10.

How do I know melee attacks take place on the segment rolled by your opponent?

1) high roll wins d6 is the only rule given in odd+Chainmail
2) while it's not mentioned in EW it is mentioned in the DMG

This is an extremely debatable claim. In fact, the DMG simply says that weapon attacks against spell casters come on that segment shown on either the opponent's or their own initiative die, whichever is applicable. We're never told which is applicable, and we're never told that this applies to anything except weapon attacks against spell casters.

Furthermore, you admit that this rule isn't stated anywhere in EW. So prior to the publication of the DMG, you're saying that one could not make sense of the initiative system in EW.

and besides the EW chart for spells/missiles doesn't work unless it is implied.

Or unless there is another interpretation that we're not seeing.

You didn't address the fact that the bonuses and penalties adjust dexterity, not initiative. Doesn't that throw a wrench in the works?

[cooper]

You didn't address the fact that the bonuses and penalties adjust dexterity, not initiative. Doesn't that throw a wrench in the works?

dexterity adjusts initiative on a +5/-5 scale (every 5 points changes initiative by 1 segment). I wasn't being clear in my writing, sorry.

here is a clearer explanation of EW and 1E's relationship

[Deleted]

Sorry Stormcrow, I was just trying to help you out. The second round action could be any one of the segments with the exception of the Post segment, depending on what the first round adj dex score was. However first round info is not givin in the example.

[cooper]

ok. I've made this as absolutely as clear as possible. I've assumed a dexterity of 10 and made a chart showing when things happen.

here it is.

[aldarron]

Why don't you guys just ask Tim Kask to clarify it for you? EW is one of his babies and I gurantee you he knows what was intended here.

[kenmeister]

So, I was reading Best of Dragon I today, and I came across the article "Speed of a Lightning Bolt" which gives a detailed example of the EW initiative system, and as far as I can tell, especially given what you all wrote above, James Ward got it totally wrong.

I'm still liking the Judges Guild Weapon Priority system better.