Sage Character Class

[gloriousbattle]

I just got the idea that this might make an interesting addition to an OD&D game. Has this been done, maybe in Dragon or White Dwarf?

Thanks

[waysoftheearth]

I don't know about White Dwarf, but there was a prestige class for D&D 3E (The Gray Sage) presented in Dragon issue 298. I've never used prestige classes, and I haven't read the article, so I can't comment on it.

The AD&D DMG devotes some five columns of text (pages 31-33) to the matter of (NPC) sages and their knowledge. That's considerably more than some of the player classes, so there is bound to be some useful material there.

[aldarron]

<sigh> Sage was a character class developed in early Blackmoor. It was amongst the material Arneson sent in for Supplement II, but Tim Kask worked it up as an NPC instead of a character class. You could work with that, or I've got a reverse engineered version in Dragons at Dawn, that you can pretty much plug right in to any OD&D game.

[Falconer]

Ed Greenwood’s Scribe class from TD #62 is one possible starting point:

Just rename him to Sage, strike the “non-player character” subtitle, and have him gain XP the same as everyone else (i.e. from adventure/treasure)! To convert him from AD&D to OD&D sensibilities, drastically reduce or remove altogether the ability score requirements, and allow him to start receiving spells long before the unthinkably high Level 11—instead, somewhere between Level 4 and Level 7 (any thoughts?).

[cooper]

I can imagine an old school, seriously old school DM creating a sage henchman for a PC and keeping track of XP total and level advancement. Wicked article.

[vito]

That's pretty freaking cool.
I kinda want to play a multiclassed dwarf fighter/scribe with dwarven runes etched into his weapons and armor.

[aldarron]

Scribe is interesting enough I suppose as a varient magic user/secretary, and maybe that's just the sort of thing GloriousBattle is looking for. But, strictly speaking, the OD&D Sage does not cast spells or use magic, with the possible and rather interesting exception of the Sage's ability to Curse. Instead they are knowledge specialists, expert professors in several areas and (according to supp II) members of a large academic network refered to as the Sages guild. In other words, they are more like Indianna Jones than Merlin.

[ckutalik]

I can't speak to the other versions of this class, but am I alone in thinking that the Greenwood one above would make for a dull character? "I'm a first level clerk hope I get a chance to read a scroll some time tonight."

I would definitely think about adding some more adventuring umph (something more like Aldarron's Indy comparison) to make it a viable PC class.

[Falconer]

It’s not a brilliant class writeup, but it’s a start, as I said. I would probably, especially if going for an Indiana Jones type character, give him the HP Progression, To-Hit Chart, and Weapon Use as a Fighting-Man, but restrict armor to Leather like a Thief. High Intelligence gives bonus to XP earned. So, basically 90% like a Fighting-Man, but sacrifices armor for a few special abilities as outlined. Ideally it would be more interesting if he had even more special abilities and had to sacrifice a bit more of his fighting clout. I would design it the way the Monk is designed, or even better, the Dwarf Craftsman. Each level gives a few more superhuman abilities that are almost like spells. That is, the Thief route (making him just better at stuff that anyone can try) is NOT a road I would continue down (because then all classes end up just being bundles of skills, and there are plenty of RPGs like that which is not my style).

[Finarvyn]

The problem I have with the Sage class is just that it's a passive class. You might come up with some neat clues, hints, rumors, etc, but there isn't much to do in combat. (Not that games have to focus on combat, but many do.)

[leon]

I doubt there's a need for a Sage character class. He's not very useful for adventuring. A magic-user or even a cleric could dabble as a sage. The wizards are by almost by default scholars (studying magic but also any kind of apocryphal knowledge) and monks (the western ones, not the kung fu kind) preserved the knowledge of the past in their monasteries. So both classes are fit for scholar endeavours.

So just take the DMG sage "abilities" and give them to these two classes. They can prove to be quite useful even when they are not casting spells.

[aldarron]

Nov 20, 2010 6:53:54 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

The problem I have with the Sage class is just that it's a passive class. You might come up with some neat clues, hints, rumors, etc, but there isn't much to do in combat. (Not that games have to focus on combat, but many do.)

Yeah, I can definetly see that line of thinking, but having run a campaign with several Sages in it now, I've been really impressed with players creatively drawing on thier knowledge base to gain advantages while adventuring.

In combat they would be run of the mill without the curse ability from supplement II, but with it, they end up being almost too poweful. Suddenly those orcs become violently ill, or thier arms go numb or they get inexplicably clumsy. I have one player who is continually surprising me with the curses he come up with.

[ckutalik]

Nov 19, 2010 13:41:04 GMT -6 Falconer said:

It’s not a brilliant class writeup, but it’s a start, as I said. I would probably, especially if going for an Indiana Jones type character, give him the HP Progression, To-Hit Chart, and Weapon Use as a Fighting-Man, but restrict armor to Leather like a Thief. High Intelligence gives bonus to XP earned. So, basically 90% like a Fighting-Man, but sacrifices armor for a few special abilities as outlined. Ideally it would be more interesting if he had even more special abilities and had to sacrifice a bit more of his fighting clout. I would design it the way the Monk is designed, or even better, the Dwarf Craftsman. Each level gives a few more superhuman abilities that are almost like spells. That is, the Thief route (making him just better at stuff that anyone can try) is NOT a road I would continue down (because then all classes end up just being bundles of skills, and there are plenty of RPGs like that which is not my style).

I totally agree that this looks like a intriguing way to get at new classes (the Dwarf Craftsmen's special abilities) while keeping them more as archetypes and less as walking bundles of dull-ish skills. I wonder why this approach wasn't taken up more with new classes.

[talysman]

I've been ruminating on possibilities for a sage class that isn't passive, could be useful in a dungeon, and doesn't have a huge bundle of abilities (like the Scribe posted above.) I wound up with this version:

A Sage solves problems using collected knowledge. Class abilities are:

• read ANY written magic item, including scrolls;
  
• get an HD (or level-based) bonus when using written resources.
  

(I set bonuses equal to HD, but others might want to set them to level/2.)

Unlike a Magic-User, a Sage has a built-in Read Magic. Sages can't prepare or memorize spells, but they can cast them from scrolls, perhaps with a fumble chance (add Spell Level - Sage HD to a d6 roll, a 6 or higher indicates a backfire.) They can learn spells, which allows them to create scrolls. Sage magic use is through scroll use.

The HD bonus for written resources means that Sages can decipher inscriptions, even in languages they don't know, can break or create codes and ciphers, and can get a bonus on a task if they can prepare using a reference work about a related topic. This makes Sages a little more like Magic-Users, in that what they can do isn't defined by a set power list, but by collecting "tools": in the M-U's case, spells recorded in spell-books; in the Sage's case, topics covered in a reference book.

The Sage's HD equals their maximum bonus, but their actual bonus for a given topic depends on the amount spent to acquire a reference book on that topic; use the cost for spell-books. To get a +6 bonus for animal lore, for example, an 11th-level Sage would need six animal lore reference works in a library, and would need to have the "6th level" reference work actually on hand. If they don't have this book with them, they get 1/3rd their full bonus, based on what little details they remember, or 1/2 their bonus if they have Int 18.

You could also let Sages prepare "Sage scrolls" which act like reference works for one specific task; they must be prepared in advance, with their full library handy, and must be targeted for a specific subset of a broader topic (for example: toads, for animal lore.) Sage scrolls are usable only once, just like magic scrolls, although they are not themselves magic; they're just very specific.