The "specialty" Cleric

[leon]

I wish this post was in the workshop category, but unfortunately I'm not proposing but asking.

Has anyone written rules for clerics of "specific mythos" (to use 2e terminology) for OD&D (or even for some simulacrum like S&W). The cleric as is doesn't fit all kinds of faiths and religions very well, so if you have a polytheistic pantheon, you may need a bit more diversity.

I don't want to use 2e specialty priests, for a couple of reasons: OD&D spells are too few to divide in 2e spheres of influence, leaving clerics with way too few spells. Special powers' power level is quite higher than the average OD&D cleric. The rules are way too complex and long. If you look at the complete priest handbook (where creating specialty priests rules and sample priests are found) the relevant section is something like 100 pages long.

I want something a bit more compact and a bit less powerful, but also generic enough to fit any campaign setting.

If it doesn't exist I'll have to come up with something and post it in the workshop.

[tombowings]

I've got nothing worked up, but my feeling is to mess with turn undead rather than the spell selection.

[coffee]

I haven't seen anything either, but would be very happy to see what you come up with. I've always thought that the generic 'Mace and Turn Undead' cleric left a bit to be desired when the DM introduces specific mythoi.

[vito]

Yeah, I think changing the cleric's weapon selection is the first step.
Switching out turn undead also sounds like a good way to go.
Perhaps clerics of Thor wield warhammers in place of maces and swap out turn undead for hallowed rune of thor.

Hallowed Rune of Thor
The cleric rolls two six sided dice against monsters of the giant type. A total that matches or exceeds the score indicated on the clerics vs. giant monsters table successfully turns the giant away.
T= Monster turned away, up to two dice in number.
D= Monster banished to Jotunheimr, up to two dice in number.
N= No effect.

Clerics Versus Giant Monsters

Type

Acolyte

Adept

Village Priest

Vicar

Curate

[td]Bishop

[/td][td]Lama[/td][td]Patriarch[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Kobolds/Goblins[/td][td]7[/td][td]T[/td][td]T[/td][td]D[/td][td]D[/td][td]D[/td][td]D[/td][td]D[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Hobgoblins/Gnolls[/td][td]9[/td][td]7[/td][td]T[/td][td]T[/td][td]D[/td][td]D[/td][td]D[/td][td]D[/td][/tr]
[/table]

(I'm not going to fill out the whole table, I'm just giving you the basic idea.)

[tombowings]

I was thinking more like clerics of the god of magic are able to read magic user spells from scrolls. Or cleric of the god of merchants have a 4 in 6 chance of correctly estimating the cost of any give item. Always having clerics "turning" some sort of monster seems a little hockey to me, but your milage may vary.

[leon]

Taking as an example the Druid (priest of nature) we can work from there. Now the druid is a bit too diversified (different XP progression, his own spell list) but we see that he has a) different weapons and armors allowed and b) different powers instead of Turn Undead.

Obviously I wouldn't start working from scratch. The 2e specialty priest rules and, heck, even the 3e domains could be used as guidelines but obviously the power level must be toned down. Also, some sort of clustering must be done to simplify things: For example gods of water, rivers, sea, oceans could be one group. The god of smiths could be in the same group with the god of fire, or the god of light with the sun god and the god of dawn. I'm talking in terms of game rule purposes, of course. I wouldn't want the wrath of gods upon me.

If I can cover the gods (and their portfolios) of Supplement IV I think that any fantasy campaign pantheon can be served.

[waysoftheearth]

[Perhaps a bit off topic... ]

The wide appeal of the "generic" cleric class may well be the foundation of the cleric's iconic status -- but that same broad fit can be a niggling flaw when the enthusiastic hobbyist gets down to "serious" world building where there are these Gods and these other religions.

One salve to this irritant is certainly to design yourself a pantheon of specialist cleric classes to go with your burgeoning pantheon of Deities... but in thirty years of following D&D I don't immediately recall any one truly "convincing" treatment of this. Sure there have been many interesting clerical concepts here and there over the years, but none of them really stuck. The fault here may well lie entirely with me... but to judge by the lack of any highly visible "answer" such might well be the lot of other D&Ders too.

However, a notion that seems (to me) both easier to accomplish and, easier for my poor simple mind-set to accept is to instead have fewer cleric classes. I.e., an alternative approach might be to relegate clerics, priests, physicians, healers, shaman and all the rest to NPCs which the PCs must call upon when in need. After all, visiting the local witch-doctor or hospice is a classic tale in many fictions, and in my experience is a common occurrence in D&D campaigns as well -- even with PC clerics in play.

Such NPCs could be of any flavour the referee cares to invent, with Deities or Demons or humble arts to back them up without going to the effort of designing balanced PC classes, spell lists and alternatives to the clerical ability to turn undead.

On the other hand, if your whole intent is to design these classes, then that's great too

Just a few reflections... please accept/reject/ignore at your liberty.


edit: fixed typo

[tombowings]

Another option is to base gods/religions on the different class. In addition to the cleric the druid (supplement III), monk (sup II), and paladin, (sup I) all have spiritual undertones that can be focused on and reinterpreted. This is the basis of religion in my own campaign world.

[ragnorakk]

A lot of neat ideas here! It might be bad or boring if the only differentiation between clerics was it's own 'class' of creature to operate against, but I have to admit that I like that concept as regards Thor, or other Valhallans perhaps. A cleric devoted to St. Patrick? Of course he turns snakes!

For the sake of full disclosure, I'm something of a cleric-hater... at least, as they are by-the-book

[aldarron]

In the supplement I'm working on for Dragons at Dawn, there are a number of examples of Monk specialists - Monks being Priests who choose a particular discipline or focus within their religion, whatever that religion may be. These could be easily adapted to any OD&D game.

a couple of the examplees I have thus far are:

The warrior monk
Monks of the Frog
The Undead Hunters

Etc. Its simply a matter of swaping a few powers/spells for others.

[waysoftheearth]

For what it's worth, in my current designs for an upcoming game without the "cleric" class I am planning to have the following instead:

* Man of the Faith (NPC, non-healing clerical spells, non-combatant),
* Sister of Mercy (NPC, healing clerical spells, non-combatant),
* Templar (PC, emotive clerical spell-like powers only, zealous/religious fighting knight),
* Paladin (PC, RARE (17+ charisma), a divinely touched Templar, with a few additional clerical spell-like powers),
* Druid (NPC, Old World order, anti-social, enemy of all of the above).

[vito]

What do you guys think of Hashshashins? I like the idea of bringing quasi-Islamic holy assassins into D&D to fight side-by-side with our quasi-Christian crusaders.

[thorswulf]

Why stick to European stuff? How about some Sumerian priests who interact with their gods from sacred ziggurrats and have more powerful spells than normal? I like the idea of a storm priest hurling lightning bolts myself.... And make them pay for lack of piety with horrible afflictions and pains (-2 to any d20 roll, perhaps?) unless they atone by performing some quest. Or better yet start a war with a rivla city state that worships a false god/dess (yours IS the only TRUE ONE). Make that turn undead ability an extension of the god's powers manifested through the cleric: Sun gods burn them with holy fire, moon goddesses freeze them with a silver halo, storm gods sheathe them in bands of lightning, or rain lashes them away, or something. Anyhoo just some random rumblings.

[apeloverage]

Oct 27, 2010 20:15:25 GMT -6 @vito said:

What do you guys think of Hashshashins? I like the idea of bringing quasi-Islamic holy assassins into D&D to fight side-by-side with our quasi-Christian crusaders.

From memory the assassin class in Dragon Warriors is quite like this.

[leon]

Oct 27, 2010 7:26:03 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

The wide appeal of the "generic" cleric class may well be the foundation of the cleric's iconic status -- but that same broad fit can be a niggling flaw when the enthusiastic hobbyist gets down to "serious" world building where there are these Gods and these other religions.

I see what you are saying, but there is one problem: The cleric isn't "generic" at all; it's very very specific as opposed to the other classes which are quite generic and fit easily into whatever character type you want.

The D&D cleric is like a knight templar mixed with Van Helsing (turn undead); it's very specific and special case and doesn't fit at all with the polytheistic pantheons of most D&D campaigns (both published and homebrew). Heck, he doesn't even fit perfectly with a 100% Catholic Christian campaign: he'd still be a special case and a minority among priests.

I guess that's why we have "specialty" clerics even in Greyhawk (in the 1e World of Greyhawk boxed set) the "default" D&D campaign setting.

Anyway: while clerics of most religions would be "wimps" (they would have HD, fighting capability, weapons and armour allowed like the magic user) for the sake of tradition and reasonable expectations from an adventuring cleric, we'll assume that all PC clerics are of the militant type while most NPC clerics would be more like the cloistered cleric of a dragon magazine article. This probably reduces the number of gods suitable as patrons for PCs quite a bit. While a priest of Ares or Apollo would fit the adventuring profile, a priest of Hestia probably wouldn't.

So clerics can first be divided to: militant clerics (suitable for adventuring) and cloistered clerics (better used as NPCs). Some religions have both kinds, others have but one.

HD and Fighting Capability: Cloistered clerics: as magic users. Militant Clerics: as normal.
Armour: Cloistered clerics: none. Militant Clerics: all are allowed but with certain exceptions according to religion. For example druids can't wear metal armour, a cleric of the god of thieves would probably be limited to leather.
Weapons: Cloistered clerics would have an extremely limited choice. Militant Clerics according to ethos. A war priest would probably be allowed to carry any weapon.
Special Power: Turn Undead is way too specific. Each type of god would bestow a different kind of power to his faithful.
The thing is to somehow reduce the "god types" to something manageable and not have 100+ different special powers, armour/weapon allowed combinations.
Spells: As is for now, I haven't thought about it.

[waysoftheearth]

Oct 28, 2010 4:15:34 GMT -6 leon said:

I see what you are saying, but there is one problem: The cleric isn't "generic" at all; it's very very specific as opposed to the other classes which are quite generic and fit easily into whatever character type you want.

I agree -- I think we are describing the same problem from different angles; the classic cleric isn't always a good fit.

Oct 28, 2010 4:15:34 GMT -6 leon said:

The D&D cleric is like a knight templar mixed with Van Helsing (turn undead)

Mmmm, except that the classic cleric is a second rate warrior who can't even wield a sword whereas (in my mind, at least) a Knight Templar is a figure to be reckoned with. Not only is he a dangerous fighting-Man, but a cultured champion of a just Cause with all the zeal and Faith of the righteous, and if that weren't enough he might even be backed by Divine favour too!

But that's just one of many possible interpretations and takes nothing away from yours.

I look forward to whatever else may crop up in the discussion

[aldarron]

Oct 28, 2010 4:15:34 GMT -6 leon said:

The cleric isn't "generic" at all; it's very very specific as opposed to the other classes which are quite generic and fit easily into whatever character type you want.

The D&D cleric is like a knight templar mixed with Van Helsing (turn undead); it's very specific and special case and doesn't fit at all with the polytheistic pantheons of most D&D campaigns (both published and homebrew). Heck, he doesn't even fit perfectly with a 100% Catholic Christian campaign: he'd still be a special case and a minority among priests.

Disagree. The class isn't so restrictive as written. Its all amatter of character and setting interpretation. Van Helsing Templars are certainly the common type of Player character, but not the only one possible.

Oct 28, 2010 4:15:34 GMT -6 leon said:

I guess that's why we have "specialty" clerics even in Greyhawk (in the 1e World of Greyhawk boxed set) the "default" D&D campaign setting.

Blackmoor, actually. Early Greyhawk apparently saw few Clerics, but they were invented in and a staple of early Blackmoor with Mike Carr's "Church of the Facts of Life", predominant.

Oct 28, 2010 4:15:34 GMT -6 leon said:

Anyway: while clerics of most religions would be "wimps" (they would have HD, fighting capability, weapons and armour allowed like the magic user) for the sake of tradition and reasonable expectations from an adventuring cleric, we'll assume that all PC clerics are of the militant type while most NPC clerics would be more like the cloistered cleric of a dragon magazine article. This probably reduces the number of gods suitable as patrons for PCs quite a bit. While a priest of Ares or Apollo would fit the adventuring profile, a priest of Hestia probably wouldn't.

Wimps? Priests of "most religions" are/were at least average tough if not more. The wimpy kind doesn't become usual until "love and peace" religions tamed the world. I don't see that as an issue in a fantasy setting.

Oct 28, 2010 4:15:34 GMT -6 leon said:

So clerics can first be divided to: militant clerics (suitable for adventuring) and cloistered clerics (better used as NPCs). Some religions have both kinds, others have but one.

HD and Fighting Capability: Cloistered clerics: as magic users. Militant Clerics: as normal.
Armour: Cloistered clerics: none. Militant Clerics: all are allowed but with certain exceptions according to religion. For example druids can't wear metal armour, a cleric of the god of thieves would probably be limited to leather.
Weapons: Cloistered clerics would have an extremely limited choice. Militant Clerics according to ethos. A war priest would probably be allowed to carry any weapon.
Special Power: Turn Undead is way too specific. Each type of god would bestow a different kind of power to his faithful.
The thing is to somehow reduce the "god types" to something manageable and not have 100+ different special powers, armour/weapon allowed combinations.
Spells: As is for now, I haven't thought about it.

Sounds awfully AD&Dish for my tastses. Aside from the "Special Power" which seems like a good idea, I think you're not really adding anything to the class variety or flavor, just making it more restrictive and less flexible. Thorswolf had some great suggestions in his post that would seem to better fit your goals in the OP.

[leon]

Oct 28, 2010 5:26:40 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Blackmoor, actually. Early Greyhawk apparently saw few Clerics, but they were invented in and a staple of early Blackmoor with Mike Carr's "Church of the Facts of Life", predominant.

Yes of course, Blackmoor was the first campaign, but Greyhawk was the campaign in which the game as we know it today was mostly developed, no? That's why I said "default". But I'd be most interested to learn more about the Church of the Facts of Life and early Blackmoor religion.

Wimps? Priests of "most religions" are/were at least average tough if not more. The wimpy kind doesn't become usual until "love and peace" religions tamed the world. I don't see that as an issue in a fantasy setting.

I think priests of ancient religions had mostly administrative and advising roles. They wielded "secret" knowledge (like writing, mathematics, astronomy) and in most cases they were the real power, while the king was a ceremonial figurehead. So they were the "smart" "wimpy" guys, definitely not the warrior types.

Sounds awfully AD&Dish for my tastses. Aside from the "Special Power" which seems like a good idea, I think you're not really adding anything to the class variety or flavor, just making it more restrictive and less flexible. Thorswolf had some great suggestions in his post that would seem to better fit your goals in the OP.

You've got a point.
Non Adventuring clerics can stay as they are: Fighting capability, HD, of MU, no armour allowed and they can only use the dagger (and perhaps the sling) as weapons.

Adventuring PC clerics: No armour restrictions. Drop the "edged weapons" clause, but there must still be some kind of restriction there; they can't be as good as fighting men. How about limiting them to weapons which do no more than 1-6 points of damage? Of course they may use weapons which are in accordance with their faith: in one religion there may be the "only non-edged weapons" clause, for example; clerics of the god of the hunt might prefer to use bows. But this I will leave uncodified to a case by case basis.
Special Powers: This should be codified like the cleric's "turn undead" or the druid's special powers. But I'd like to keep the number of available powers manageable. Even if a pantheon has 100 gods, it doesn't mean that they should bestow 100 different powers.
Spells: everybody uses the cleric's spell list.

[leon]

And now for something different: Instead of the "standard" polytheistic pantheon fare there can be a "new faith" vs. "old faith" motif (for a different type of campaign). Old faith is the pagan faith of nature with its many gods and spirits, represented by the Druid. It is chaotic (as is nature).
The new faith is the faith of man and civilization where the one god drives away the many. It is represented by the Cleric and has a more rigid structure. It's obviously Lawful.

So we have a law vs. chaos, new vs. old, one god vs. many, civilization vs. nature, motif. Not a good vs. evil motif mind, but most certainly the new faith would demonise the old and characterise it as "evil".

Druid stays as is, the Cleric stays as is, except "turn undead". There will be turning all right, but most probably of pixies, dryads and other woodland spirits.

[aldarron]

Oct 28, 2010 6:53:28 GMT -6 leon said:

Oct 28, 2010 5:26:40 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Blackmoor, actually. Early Greyhawk apparently saw few Clerics, but they were invented in and a staple of early Blackmoor with Mike Carr's "Church of the Facts of Life", predominant.

Yes of course, Blackmoor was the first campaign, but Greyhawk was the campaign in which the game as we know it today was mostly developed, no? That's why I said "default". But I'd be most interested to learn more about the Church of the Facts of Life and early Blackmoor religion.

The OD&D Cleric is the cleric as developed in Blackmoor, pretty much. The only change I know of that Gygax made was to limit thier effectiveness against magic. Blackmoor clerics could always dispell a majic users magic if they were of equal level or less. Gygax also seems to have added a couple spells since Arneson only mentions 21.

The early Blackmoor pantheon is vague, but seems to have been divided between the gods of order, and the "dark Lords" of chaos, represented by the Id and the Egg of coot. The church of the facts of life seems to be a kind of mega institution like the catholic church.

Oct 28, 2010 6:53:28 GMT -6 leon said:

I think priests of ancient religions had mostly administrative and advising roles. They wielded "secret" knowledge (like writing, mathematics, astronomy) and in most cases they were the real power, while the king was a ceremonial figurehead. So they were the "smart" "wimpy" guys, definitely not the warrior types.

Lets agree to disagree. I think this will depend entirely on what civiliztion you are talking about at what time period. I'd never describe aztec or Mayan or Viking, or any pre state society I can think of as having wimpy priests.

[blackbarn]

Oct 26, 2010 17:59:47 GMT -6 tombowings said:

I've got nothing worked up, but my feeling is to mess with turn undead rather than the spell selection.

This is what I've been doing. Turning undead seems like it would be something based on a particular religion, not on all religions, so I like to swap it out for some other ability.

One example: I have clerics with a chant that works on snake men to dispel their illusion of human appearance (based on a concept from Robert E. Howard & Kull), which might be reason enough for them to make a morale check as well.

Turning could also be replaced with abilities that don't resemble turning at all, of course. Maybe there are clerics of a healing god whose healing spells are more potent, clerics of a war god might be able to use swords, etc.

I wouldn't want to change too much, less it seem like a whole new class entirely. I think one significant change is enough, and turning is the best candidate for switching out because it's so specific.