d6 for Saving Throws

[murquhart72]

This just popped into my head and I haven't even looked anything up yet, but what do you suppose the effect would be if Saving Throws were done thusly:

Subtract the number for a character's Saving Throw from 20, and meet or beat that score by rolling the character's Hit Dice.

Am I WAY off the mark here, or is this a viable way to avoid d20 rolls and make sure upper level characters don't die from poison too often?

[crusssdaddy]

I don't know, are that many upper level characters falling victim to poison? I like having an onset time of 2d4 rounds, which gives the cleric time to save the day. But otherwise, I like having save or die be an equalizer that strikes fear into the heart of all levels.

[murquhart72]

Would that even be an effect though? I haven't done the math. It just seemed like a good idea when only using six-siders with D&D.

[murquhart72]

Uh oh: I just took another look at the tables and I can't see how a poisoned Adept is going to roll 9 or better on a single die
Oh well, back to the drawing board...

[Finarvyn]

The big problem I see is that those dice add up in a hurry. A 1st level character's 1d6 gives him a 1-6 (average 3.5) range but a 4th level hero's 4d6 gives him a 4-24 (average 14) range.

How about this: forget about the OD&D tables and assume that a d6 roll of 6 is a save. Then let the character roll a number of d6 dice equal to hit dice (or level, if you like). So, the first level character rolls 1 die hoping for the 6 while the 4th level character rolls 4 dice hoping for a 6. Or, you could let a save be 5-6 to make the odds better.

If you like the 3E system (Fortitude, Willpower, Reflex) you could assign one per class to be 5-6 and the other two to be 6 only. Heck, you could go back to the old saving throw charts and use the same categories as OD&D, only with 6 or 5-6 pre-determined for each class.

Keeps those d6's flowing.

[murquhart72]

You may see 4-8 dice being rolled as a problem, but I play Tunnels & Trolls and love hearing the clatter of many dice
I still want to use the table somehow. I like the divisions used and want to have similar odds, just not with a d20. My initial thought was using 3d6, but that would make higher level rolls automatic for some. I dunno, I'll figure it out...

EDIT: What about instead of rolling 1d20, rolling 2d6 with doubles adding and rolling over?

[Mike]

Hehe, classic T&T TheMattJon! I exalt thee!!!

[Mike]

One way to keep the numbers down would be roll the necessary dice but read only the highest die, plus one pip per die that matches the highest. so three sixes on three dice equals a score of 8.

[Mushgnome]

Multiple dice = bell curve

Easy saves become much easier.
Difficult saves become much more difficult.

[coffee]

Here are a few other ideas:

odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=menmagic&action=display&thread=855

[Finarvyn]

Sept 21, 2010 6:48:38 GMT -6 murquhart72 said:

You may see 4-8 dice being rolled as a problem, but I play Tunnels & Trolls and love hearing the clatter of many dice

Don't forget, I'm also Vin Ahrr Vin, head troll of the TrollBridge and "The Muad'Dib of T&T"

It's not that rolling lots of dice presents the problem. The problem is that the number ranges change too much to use the same target number for few/many dice. What is balanced well for 1d6 tends to be broken for 8d6, and vice versa.

[thegreyelf]

I included a 2d6 saving throw system in my Forbidden Lore OD&D Chainmail rules on my website.

[murquhart72]

For the time being (until I figure out something I like), I'm going with makofan's table (which uses 2d6):

                                All Wands
                                Including
                    Death Ray   Polymorph or           Dragon   Staves &
Class & Level       or Poison   Paralization   Stone   Breath   Spells
----------------    ---------	------------   -----   ------   ------
Fighting-Men 1-3       7          7              8       8        9
Magic-User   1-5       7          8              7       9        8
Cleric       1-4       7          7              8       9        8

Fighting-Men 4-6       7          7              7       7        8
Magic-User   6-10      7          7              7       8        7
Cleric       5-8       7          7              7       8        7

Fighting-Men 7-9       7          7              7       7        7
Magic-User   11-15     7          7		 7       7        7
Cleric       9-12      6          6              7       7        7

Fighting-Men 10-12     6          6              7       7        7
Magic-User   16+       5          6              5       7        4
Cleric       13+       4          5              6       7        6

Fighting-Men 13+       5          5              5       5        7

[Finarvyn]

That's a pretty good table for 2d6.

I thought that you wanted to use variable numbers of d6 dice, which is why I proposed my alternate method.

[waysoftheearth]

That is noble use of 2d6 indeed... but I can't help but notice that some of the numbers are not as close (probability-wise) to the original saving throw matrix as they could be.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, it seems that a 1st level Fighting-Man is far more likely to roll a successful save versus poison on 2d6 if he requires a 7+ (68% chance) than he would be if he rolls d20 and requires a 12+ (45% chance). However, if he were to require 8+ on 2d6, his chance of success is 42% -- much nearer the d20 odds.

I suspect that the differences may have been introduced with an eye to differentiating the classes somewhat. However, if you are interested in keeping the odds of successful saving throws as near to the original d20 spread as possible, here is an amended matrix (alterations are indicated with an asterisk).

Enjoy!

[thegreyelf]

I based mine off of Chainmail's saving throw mechanic, which is even more brutal to low-level characters (needing an 11 to save), but then adapted a "Save Categories" bonus chart from the d20 method, which grants bonuses to classes based on their levels.

[murquhart72]

Sept 23, 2010 6:00:24 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

I suspect that the differences may have been introduced with an eye to differentiating the classes somewhat. However, if you are interested in keeping the odds of successful saving throws as near to the original d20 spread as possible, here is an amended matrix (alterations are indicated with an asterisk).

Enjoy!

Thanks for that, I like those number and think I'll tweak what I have so far. Still looking for a method of using 6-siders without having to consult a table, but it's not as easy for Saving Throws as it is for combat. Might just have to make up an entirely different system, but I'm still not sure.