Subduing Dragons

[Finarvyn]

Dragons have always been a special monster in D&D. Heck, the name "Dungeons and Dragons" just screams dragons at you.

Dragons get one of the most extensive sections of coverage among all of the monsters. Clearly, fighting a dragon is supposed to be scary and memorable.

In Monsters & Treasure on pages 12-13, there are extensive rules for how to subdue a dragon. I will confess that in three decades of playing D&D, we only tried to subdue a dragon a couple of times.

Has anyone tried to use these rules, and did they actually have any success along the way?

[meepo]

Ya know, it's never once come up.

Just once, it'd be neat to test drive those rules. Though I shudder to think what they'd do with the dragon afterwards...

[Finarvyn]

Well, it's always interesting to me to re-read the rules every few years. I always run into "wow, is that in there?" or "we never do it this way" moments because most of my campaigns are not based on any single rulebook but instead are a combination of rules from who-knows-where. (Take OD&D, sprinkle in some C&C...)

[foster1941]

We definitely subdued a couple dragons back in the 80s (and probably sold them afterwords, because I don't remember anybody having a pet dragon later in the game). We also tried unsuccessfully to subdue at least one more, and lost a good chunk of the party in the process...

[crimhthanthegreat]

Here is what we did:

First of all and I won't go into all the details here, we redid the age ranges with the Very Old Dragons being 5000 yrs old and up with adjustments to this scale for all ages of the dragons.

For very young, young and sub-adult dragons, we did subdual BtB. For Adult and Old Dragons we required 50% more subdual damage, we accomplished this by increasing the dragons hit points by 50% for the subdual percentage calculations. For these dragons, if they escape subdual, they will attack and/or escape at the first opportunity. If they escape they will follow you until an opportune time to take revenge. For Very Old Dragons we required 100% more subdual damage, by doubling the dragons hit point for the subdual precentage calculations. For these dragons, if they escape subdual, they will attack and/or escape at the first opportunity. If they escape they will follow you until an opportune time to take revenge and may recruit other dragons to help them if they think they need help.

Moral: Think twice and then a third time and possibly a fourth time before trying to subdue a dragon.

[serendipity]

To me, the very thought of subduing a dragon is just wrong. I believe there are creatures which will fight to the death rather than surrender to another's will, and dragons belong firmly in that category. (As an aside, my sister-in-law would say my cat fits into that category as well.) Dragons are, however, quite intelligent beings, and one might be able to bargain with one if only one could successfully communicate with it and happened to possess something it desired.

[crimhthanthegreat]

Dragons are very intelligent, they are also very crafty. Subdual only occurs when a dragon is convinced that you have the upperhand (temporarily that is). I did my house rule to show that the older the dragon the more difficult it is to get into a subdual situation. Remember that there is a limit to how many that can attack at the same time and with Very Old Dragons I double their hit points to do the calculations. I think it strikes a good balance between the extremes. You would expect a young dragon to be more easily intimidated when confronted with what appears to be overwhelming force. The other thing you miss is that to even attempt subdual you have to first get the drop on a dragon, do you have any idea how difficult that is to do with even a young dragon? It is orders of magnitude more difficult to do with a Very Old Dragon. While dragons don't lack in courage, assuming that concept could even be said to be relevant to such a creature, and they don't fear death as some do, they are also not eager to die and value their lives, they don't fight to the death if they think they see a way out of it.

IMC dragons can be communicated with and bargained with. Some dragons follow the Way of Law, some the Way of Chaos and some the Way of Neutrality, all can be bargained with in the right situation although those that follow the Way of Law tend to be a bit less risky to deal with.

[serendipity]

crimhthanthegreat said:

Dragons are very intelligent, they are also very crafty. Subdual only occurs when a dragon is convinced that you have the upperhand (temporarily that is).

But why would a dragon ever think the PCs had the upper hand unless they had an entire army backing them??

[crimhthanthegreat]

serendipity said:

crimhthanthegreat said:

Dragons are very intelligent, they are also very crafty. Subdual only occurs when a dragon is convinced that you have the upperhand (temporarily that is).

But why would a dragon ever think the PCs had the upper hand unless they had an entire army backing them??

First, that is why the difficulty increases the older and more experienced a dragon is; second, a dragon while very powerful are not invulnerable and three, a dragon has no way to know for sure how much power or magic a party has if they were successful in getting close enough to attempt subdual. A young dragon is much more likely to be bluffed, while an older more experienced dragon may be almost impossible to bluff. In addition, dragon vary in how wise and discerning they are. What works with one dragon, might not work with any other. I play this on a case by case basis. It is also not attempted very often since failure usually means death or servitude or worse. I also might mention that the success rate with all but the youngest dragons is quite low, just not impossible.

[serendipity]

If I were a dragon, I'd fight to the last scale and claw. If I were broken and hemorrhaging from every major artery in my body then maybe I'd give in. Or maybe not. That's how I see the spirit of dragons. I kind of like the idea that there are creatures which cannot be taken over. You can kill them. You might be able to communicate and/or bargain with them, though I'd be very wary of doing so! Maybe you could use magic to hold them temporarily (I'd prefer it if they were impervious to magic, but okay). But never subdual. It diminishes them somehow.

Edit: P.S. Maybe this goes with my philosophy that not everything encountered by PCs is meant to be overcome and/or killed.

[crimhthanthegreat]

I play it that dragons highly value their lives and the chaotic ones are by nature extremely devious. I believe that dragons will go to great lengths to avoid death and again read all I said above about what a dragon does when it escapes subdual. I don't like to make anything invulnerable, but subdual is very difficult and it comes at a price. Subdual is more like a temporary truce and the PC's never know when it is coming to an abrupt and sudden end.

But I understand your view and it is just as valid as any other.

[dekelia]

I disagree with most peoples view of Dragons, at least how they are described in D&D. I don't think they are noble brave, etc, etc creatures that people seem to be describing. They seem much more vain, petty, and cowardly as they are described in the book. The reason reason they can be subdued is *because* they are so vain and cowardly. That's also why they can be flattered, bribed, etc.

Obviously you could have a different idea about dragons than what is described in the books, but I think in those cases subdual *wouldn't* make sense, which is probably why everyone seems to have a problem with it.

I do like the idea that the very old dragons would be much less likely to be subdued. Maybe those are the dragons of Tolkien, etc and the younger ones are as described in D&D.

[Falconer]

I would like to point you all to J.R.R. Tolkien’s story “Farmer Giles of Ham.” Therein, the hero is able to subdue the dragon Chrysophylax Dives, to great effect. Wonderful tale. Regards.

[foster1941]

dekelia said:

They seem much more vain, petty, and cowardly as they are described in the book. The reason reason they can be subdued is *because* they are so vain and cowardly. That's also why they can be flattered, bribed, etc.

Absolutely. And don't forget lazy. Dragons as described in the D&D rules are also extraordinarily lazy -- the only monster that has a significant percentage chance of being asleep at any given time.

[Deleted]

falconer said:

I would like to point you all to J.R.R. Tolkien’s story “Farmer Giles of Ham.” Therein, the hero is able to subdue the dragon Chrysophylax Dives, to great effect. Wonderful tale. Regards.

Indeed, Falconer. Not only is "Farmer Giles of Ham" one of my favorite J.R.R.T. stories, but I highly recommend it to anyone who has never read it--A very fun (& funny) story! ;D

[badger2305]

Of course, since dragons are crafty and devious, they may pretend to be subdued, so as to get the drop on the party.

Just sayin'....

[dekelia]

falconer said:

I would like to point you all to J.R.R. Tolkien’s story “Farmer Giles of Ham.” Therein, the hero is able to subdue the dragon Chrysophylax Dives, to great effect. Wonderful tale. Regards.

I have a hardback book with that story in it, but I never got around to reading it. Thanks for the reminder :). I'll have to check that out tonight.

[busman]

I'm jumping in with Crimhthan on this one.

Think of it, a Dragon can live for potentially thousands of years, why risk ending that for what amounts to a small slice of time as a prisoner? You seen humans engage in this same behavior all of the time: prisoners who calmly accept their punishment, prisoners of war who know that being captured means possibly months or years of subjugation, etc.

For a Dragon what does even 50 years of subdual mean in it's overall lifetime? It's a drop in the bucket, much better than dying. Live to fight another day and all of that. It fits very much into their craftiness and slimey nature. And they will surely stab you in the back the second they get the chance; you always need to be the Alpha dog when it comes to subduing a dragon.

That said, I think we did this only 1 time way back in the mid to late 70s when we were first playing, before we moved over to AD&D.

Having reread through the OD&D rules a few times in the last half year or so, I forget how much they shaped my vision of D&D, the openness of the game, the potential to do anything. This is just another great example of the possibilities of it all.

And thanks for the Farmer Giles tip, I have the story, I just never got around to reading it.