Cool unorthodox Gygax quote from 1975

[geoffrey]

Check out this quote from a letter by Gary Gygax that was published in Alarums and Excursions #2, July 1975:

'Dave [Arneson] and I disagree on how to handle any number of things, and both of our campaigns differ from the "rules" found in D&D. If the time ever comes when all aspects of fantasy are covered and the vast majority of its players agree on how the game should be played, D&D will have become stald and boring indeed. Sorry, but I don't believe that there is anything desirable in having various campaigns playing similarly to one another. D&D is supposed to offer a challenge to the imagination and to do so in many ways. Perhaps the most important is in regard to what the probabilities of a given situation are. If players know what all of the monster parameters are, what can be expected in a given situation, exactly what will happen to them if they perform thus and so, most of the charm of the game is gone. Frankly, the reason I enjoy playing in Dave Arneson's campaign is that I do NOT know his treatments of monsters and suchlike, so I must keep thinking and reasoning in order to "survive".'

(which I found here: axe-n-hammer.blogspot.com/2010/08/gygax-legendarium-letters-to-lee-gold_16.html )

The first part of the above quote is quite distinct from some of the things Gary wrote when AD&D was at its height. (Cf., for instance, the preface of the DMG.) I must say that I prefer the older, looser approach to the game.

The second part of the quote reminds me of James Raggi's words in his Random Esoteric Creature Generator, in which he says we need to use new, unique monsters because the old standby D&D monsters have been practically memorized by all too many players.

[coffee]

Good stuff, there, Geoffrey!

Have an exalt for bringing that to our attention.


(Now if somebody could just find the Gygax quote that I've been looking for, that "our biggest mistake was telling them they needed rules". I've heard people quote it, but have no hard source for it.)

[James Maliszewski]

Aug 16, 2010 8:25:11 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

The first part of the above quote is quite distinct from some of the things Gary wrote when AD&D was at its height. (Cf., for instance, the preface of the DMG.) I must say that I prefer the older, looser approach to the game.

If you read a lot of the early fanzines, you'll find Gary saying things similar to this quite regularly. After a certain point in time (1976?), Gary's appearances in the fanzines become fewer and fewer and what he has to say takes on a different tenor.

[Finarvyn]

Aug 16, 2010 10:06:39 GMT -6 coffee said:

(Now if somebody could just find the Gygax quote that I've been looking for, that "our biggest mistake was telling them they needed rules". I've heard people quote it, but have no hard source for it.)

Not quite what you want, and I don't think they cite a source, but what about:
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules."

www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/gary_gygax.html

Wikipedia (our favorite non-source) attributes this quote to an interview with Allan Varney -- it's at the very bottom of this article on Amber Diceless:

www.allenvarney.com/rev_04a.html

A page on "dragon" quotes also gives the quote, with no source given.

www.goodreads.com/quotes/show_tag?name=dragons

Bottom line: Lots of people quote it, but I can't find an original source for the quote, either.

[coffee]

Hey, that's a lot more info than I had before. Thanks for that.

[aldarron]

Nice find Geoffrey! Exalt

[blissinfinite]

Very profound quote and words to live by. Thanks for sharing.

[grodog]

Aug 16, 2010 11:18:18 GMT -6 James Maliszewski said:

If you read a lot of the early fanzines, you'll find Gary saying things similar to this quite regularly. After a certain point in time (1976?), Gary's appearances in the fanzines become fewer and fewer and what he has to say takes on a different tenor.

It might be interesting to catalog his fanzine appearances, and then to track the progress of the reviews of D&D from 1974-1977 (many of which were not terribly good), as well as the various episodes of photocopied game rules being forcibly removed at early GenCons---to see if there's any correlation between the reviews and/or the photocopies in Gary's increasing hostility toward 'zines and his stance toward the game as an authoritative source shifting as well. Some of that may-well have baked into his plans for defining AD&D more rigidly and thoroughly than OD&D was done (in addition to the usual legal reasons for AD&D's "differences" re: Arneson royalties).

[James Maliszewski]

Aug 18, 2010 9:05:08 GMT -6 grodog said:

It might be interesting to catalog his fanzine appearances, and then to track the progress of the reviews of D&D from 1974-1977 (many of which were not terribly good), as well as the various episodes of photocopied game rules being forcibly removed at early GenCons---to see if there's any correlation between the reviews and/or the photocopies in Gary's increasing hostility toward 'zines and his stance toward the game as an authoritative source shifting as well.

That sounds like an excellent historical project! Has anyone, at this date, even begun a cataloging of Gary's 'zine articles? I ask, because I'd hate to replicate someone else's work if it exists.

[harami2000]

Aug 18, 2010 9:38:49 GMT -6 James Maliszewski said:

That sounds like an excellent historical project! Has anyone, at this date, even begun a cataloging of Gary's 'zine articles? I ask, because I'd hate to replicate someone else's work if it exists.

I know they're not the only one but Grendelwulf, as above, seems to be more than happy to work their way through the list and they've done a fine job pulling together such material in a more focused manner than most other online sites.

Aug 18, 2010 9:05:08 GMT -6 grodog said:

It might be interesting to catalog his fanzine appearances, and then to track the progress of the reviews of D&D from 1974-1977 (many of which were not terribly good), as well as the various episodes of photocopied game rules being forcibly removed at early GenCons---to see if there's any correlation between the reviews and/or the photocopies in Gary's increasing hostility toward 'zines and his stance toward the game as an authoritative source shifting as well. Some of that may-well have baked into his plans for defining AD&D more rigidly and thoroughly than OD&D was done (in addition to the usual legal reasons for AD&D's "differences" re: Arneson royalties).

If Gary's hostility was towards the (US) 'zines, then it was possibly even more so towards elements in his own wargaming community which "didn't understand him" earlier on and saw D&D as a serious competitor not much later. Even where EGG didn't get personally involved there were proxy "wars" such as that which seriously damaged the SoA over here.
In addition to those legal reasons there are obvious "business" control reasons and, as is well known, even Gary did not initially expect D&D to catch on quite as well as it did -- virtually all of which was community based rather than from impetus provided by TSR in that 1974-77 period. Tightening up the game rules makes perfect sense in that context but thankfully RP gaming concepts are broad enough to ensure that it's not possible to fully stifle or "control" creativity and once the genie was finally(!) out of the bottle after so many false starts it couldn't be put back in.