I hate "Christmas trees"

[vito]

I ended up playing in a high-level game of 3.5 tonight.
I was a newby in a campaign that has been going on for well over a year. The DM gave me a pregenerated level 14 fighter with a backstory already written and a ton of magic items.

I have had a few issues this game session, but among them is a problem with the system.
I don't like magic-item "Christmas trees"; I don't like it when characters are covered from head to toe in enchanted items.

I'm a big fan of low-magic fantasy like Conan the Barbarian. I don't like settings where powerful amulets and hammers of flame can be purchased at the local magic-item shop at any town you go to. I don't like settings where I need all of these wacky items to be effective as a character.

For all of it's faults, at least fourth-edition has the option of 'intrinsic bonuses' as an alternative to magic-item Christmas-trees. Why can't third-edition have something like that?

My pal Jim explained that high-level characters needed to find lots of magic-items to make the game interesting. He argues that if you don't reward PC's with frequent stockpiles of magic weapons, you couldn't really reward the PC's at all. I don't really buy that.

[Finarvyn]

Aug 13, 2010 3:25:43 GMT -6 @vito said:

My pal Jim explained that high-level characters needed to find lots of magic-items to make the game interesting. He argues that if you don't reward PC's with frequent stockpiles of magic weapons, you couldn't really reward the PC's at all. I don't really buy that.

I don't buy that at all, either. The game should be interesting based on the interaction with the personalities at the table and the adventures that you run, not based on stockpiles of magic items.

I often run a low-magic style where characters have very few magic items, and my players seem to have a great time with it. Of course I've also run a few games where they are loaded with stuff and they seem to enjoy that as well, although they don't find such games as challenging. Instead of having to come up with clever solutions, they can just blast their way through a tricky situation.

[Finarvyn]

Aug 13, 2010 3:25:43 GMT -6 @vito said:

For all of it's faults, at least fourth-edition has the option of 'intrinsic bonuses' as an alternative to magic-item Christmas-trees. Why can't third-edition have something like that?

Any edition can have as much of this as you like. (Well, as much as the Game Master likes....)

3E already has "Feats", which do much like you suggest.

Simply generate a list of neat things you want the classes to be able to do and spread 'em out at different levels. For example, if you want a flashy combat-centric game give "Cleave" to all of your fighter types.

Or, simply advance characters through levels faster so they can do more. I often start my PCs off at 3rd or 4th level and keep them there for a long time. Sometimes they never advance in levels. This gives them the early power so they can do lots of stuff early on, but then limits the gaudy powers later on.

The rules as written are designed to give characters certain powers at specific levels, but as GM you have control over this.

[greyharp]

I know from experience that a 1st Edition game can easily go down this path too.

[Finarvyn]

Heck, so can an OD&D game.

We had at one game in the '70's where characters advanced way too quickly and we were just loaded with stuff. The final straw was finding the "Machine of Lum the Mad" from GDG&H and one of the levers made armor gain plusses. We kept making that armor better and better before that lever finally broke, but our AC was so gaudy that nothing could hit us. Of course, the campaign lost its thrill round that time as well. Coincidence?

[coffee]

A friend of mine was a DM back in the day, before I even got started. He told me about a 'Christmas Tree' party he'd seen once (I believe he was running for whoever showed up, that sort of thing.)

He had a dragon fly over the party. So one of the Lords in the party turned his Rod of Lordly Might into its spear configuration and threw it at the dragon. Naturally, he hit, but didn't kill the dragon.

The dragon, realizing what he had, and knowing that he couldn't hope to defeat a party that could idly throw such a thing away, kept on flying and added the Rod to his hoarde. (The damage he took was a small price to pay.)

End of encounter...

[chicagowiz]

Aug 13, 2010 9:27:25 GMT -6 coffee said:

A friend of mine was a DM back in the day, before I even got started. He told me about a 'Christmas Tree' party he'd seen once (I believe he was running for whoever showed up, that sort of thing.)

He had a dragon fly over the party. So one of the Lords in the party turned his Rod of Lordly Might into its spear configuration and threw it at the dragon. Naturally, he hit, but didn't kill the dragon.

The dragon, realizing what he had, and knowing that he couldn't hope to defeat a party that could idly throw such a thing away, kept on flying and added the Rod to his hoarde. (The damage he took was a small price to pay.)

End of encounter...

I don't know which is more funny: the dragon saying "Thanks, seeya!" or the fact that you wrote "one of the Lords in the party turned his Rod of Lordly Might into its spear configuration"...

...

Aw, c'mon, that's just d**n funny! That gets +1XP for Line of the Day!

[geoffrey]

I like the distribution of magic items amongst the heroes in the AD&D Deities & Demigods Cyclopedia. Over 90% of the heroes have 0, 1, or 2 magic items.

23 have no magic items.
17 have 1 magic item.
8 have 2 magic items.
2 have 3 magic items.
1 has 7 magic items.
1 has 9 magic items.
Circe has an undetermined number.

Here are the particulars regarding magic-item possession (along with AC and Dex information to show just how unimpressive their armor classes are when compared to typical high-level AD&D characters):

AMERICAN INDIAN MYTHOS

Hiawatha (AC 5, D 19 )
1. canoe that moves by itself

Qagwaaz (AC 6, D 18 )
None

Stoneribs (AC 6, D 18 )
1. cloak that enables him to turn into a halibut

Yanauluha (AC 3, D 18 )
None


ARTHURIAN HEROES

King Arthur (AC 0, D 16 )
1. +5 LG sword of sharpness (Excalibur)
2. scabbard that protects against cuts

Sir Bernlad de Hautdesert (AC sp., D 13 )
1. armor that prevents harm from physical weapons
2. +3 axe

Sir Galahad (AC -4, D 18 )
None

Sir Gareth of Orkney (AC -2, D 18 )
None

Sir Garlon (AC 1, D 15 )
None

Sir Gawaine (AC -2, D 18 )
1. +2 sword (Galatine)

Sir Lamorak (AC -2, D 18 )
None

Sir Launcelot du Lake (AC -3, D 18 )
None

Merlin (AC 2, D 18 )
1. staff (of many spell storings and of striking)
2. bracers

Morgan le Fay (AC 4, D 17 )
1. +3 ring of protection

Sir Palomides the Saracen (AC 2, D 18 )
None

King Pellinore (AC -2, D 18 )
None

Sir Tristram of Lyoness (AC -3, D 19 )
None


BABYLONIAN MYTHOS

Gilgamesh (AC 6, D 18 )
1. +2 mace (2-20 damage)


CELTIC MYTHOS

Cu Chulainn (AC -1, D 19 )
1. +4 spear (4-40 damage), prevents surprise

Math (AC 6, D 18 )
1. Torc of the Gods (shape change and polymorph others)
2. rod that turns others into pools of water

The Master of the Hunt (AC 0, D 18 )
1. +3 spear


CENTRAL AMERICAN MYTHOS

Hunapu and Xbalanque (AC 2, D 18 )
None


FINNISH MYTHOS

Vainamoinen (AC -4, D 24 )
1. +5 leather armor
2. +5 battle axe
3. intelligent +3 sword of sharpness
4. girdle of cloud giant strength
5. crossbow of accuracy, distance, and speed
6. self-loading and firing crossbow
7. boat of holding

Water Dwarf (AC -2, D 18 )
1. crossbow of accuracy
2. +3 mace

Ilmarinen (AC 0, D 18 )
1. +4 leather armor
2. +4 hammer
3. self-moving sledge

Kullervo (AC 1, D 18 )
1. +2 axe of sharpness

Lemminkainen (AC -2, D 18 )
1. +3 javelin of distance
2. +3 bow
3. quiver of animal slaying arrows
4. +5 sword of sharpness and flaming
5. +3 dagger
6. girdle of frost giant strength
7. +4 chainmail
8. snowshoes of speed and traveling
9. magical brush of shedding blood

Tiera (AC 4, D 17 )
1. +3 spear

Louhi (AC 8, D 18 )
None

Son of Pohjola (AC 4, D 19 )
1. +3 sword (2-20 damage)


GREEK MYTHOS

Achilles (AC 0, D 18 )
1. +2 chainmail
2. +2 shield

Bellerophon (AC 4, D 18 )
None

Circe (AC 10, D 17 )
every magical device capable of turning creatures into other creatures: polymorph wands, polymorph potions, polymorph scrolls, etc.

Heracles (AC -2, D 19 )
1. bow that cannot miss
2. huge club (5-50 damage)
3. skin of magical Nemean lion (reduces thrusting and slashing damage)

Jason (AC 3, D 18 )
1. Golden Fleece (heals and raises dead)

Odysseus (AC 2, D 16 )
None

Perseus (AC 3, D 18 )
1. helm of invisibility (returned to the gods)
2. winged sandals (returned to the gods)
3. vorpal blade (returned to the gods)
4. Aegis shield (returned to the gods)

Theseus (AC 4, D 18 )
None


JAPANESE MYTHOS

Raiko (AC -1, D 19 )
None

Yamamoto Date (AC 2, D 19 )
1. sword of sharpness and dragon slaying

Yoshi-Iye (AC 2, D 19 )
None


MELNIBONEAN MYTHOS

Elric (AC 6, D 17 )
1. The Ring of Kings
2. Stormbringer

Moonglum (AC 2, D 19 )
None

Theleb K’aarna (AC 10, D 15 )
None

Yyrkoon (AC -4, D 15 )
1. Mournblade


NEHWON MYTHOS

Fafhrd (AC 3, D 18 )
None

Gray Mouser (AC 2, D 19 )
None

Movarl (AC 2, D 17 )
1. +1 two-handed sword (2-20 damage)

Ningauble of the Seven Eyes (AC -2, D 16 )
None

Pulgh (AC 2, D 17 )
1. +3 spear (2-12 damage)

Sheelba of the Eyeless Face
1. magic walking hut


NORSE MYTHOS

Fjalar (AC -3, D 18 )
1. +3 gauntlets (2-20 damage)

Skirnir (AC -3, D 18 )
1. +4 chainmail
2. +3 two-handed sword

[coffee]

Aug 13, 2010 9:35:50 GMT -6 chicagowiz said:

Aw, c'mon, that's just d**n funny! That gets +1XP for Line of the Day!

Thanks! Glad you liked it.

[blackbarn]

I'm not a an of figuring "Expected" magic item bonuses into the game itself. It makes the items required instead of something special. It's so much better to have a character who can survive without magic items and weapons, but who has really found something amazing and *above* the expected if he does acquire one. All sacrificed in the name of almighty perfected balance in later editions.

[vito]

Aug 13, 2010 10:06:25 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Here are the particulars regarding magic-item possession (along with AC and Dex information to show just how unimpressive their armor classes are when compared to typical high-level AD&D characters):

Cool list!
Just one little gripe about Elric of Melnibone:

Didn't he get also get a magic shield in The Sad Giant? I believe he got a magic horn too.

[kenmeister]

Ironically, I've seen 1E play in the opposite way where I wish characters would hold onto some of the items more. But when the party acquires a ring where it is 1000 xp to keep or 10000 gp and xp to sell, the party chooses to sell nearly every time. They go up levels faster, but stay low magic. It's like, "Guys, I'm trying to give you something cool to play with."

[coffee]

Aug 16, 2010 17:55:23 GMT -6 kenmeister said:

Ironically, I've seen 1E play in the opposite way where I wish characters would hold onto some of the items more. But when the party acquires a ring where it is 1000 xp to keep or 10000 gp and xp to sell, the party chooses to sell nearly every time. They go up levels faster, but stay low magic. It's like, "Guys, I'm trying to give you something cool to play with."

I wish!

In my group, it was an article of faith that xp for gp was "silly". We still got xp for magic items, though -- so there was intense competition for them.

I never thought much of it, but lately it's been coming up on blogs and such, and it doesn't make sense to me.

And now? I'm in another AD&D game, where the DM thinks xp for gp is silly (the gold is enough reward!), but gives xp for MIs.

Huh?


I won't even get into the way we treated +1 swords in 3e...

[waysoftheearth]

Aug 16, 2010 17:55:23 GMT -6 kenmeister said:

Ironically, I've seen 1E play in the opposite way where I wish characters would hold onto some of the items more. But when the party acquires a ring where it is 1000 xp to keep or 10000 gp and xp to sell, the party chooses to sell nearly every time. They go up levels faster, but stay low magic. It's like, "Guys, I'm trying to give you something cool to play with."

Hmmm, I would never give the PCs XP for selling goods at a profit lest they figure it's safer to earn XP as a potato merchant than an adventurer.

As far as selling magic items "every time"... I do wonder who has all this gold to spend?

And how does the "Ridiculously Wealthy Prince of Far Away" learn that the players have said items for sale? How long does it take the Princely delegation to arrive to inspect the goods? Doesn't the Prince bring along specialist historians, negotiators, wizards, clerics and bullies to ensure an absolutely rock bottom price? Don't half a dozen heirs of the "true owner" appear out of nowhere to claim what is rightfully theirs? Are there not various militant religious orders sworn to confiscate or claim or destroy the item by divine right? And in the meanwhile, isn't every professional thief in the land scoping out the PCs' treasure vaults? And after the sale, aren't all those thieves just as interested in the gold as they were in the item? And if one silly Prince is interested in the item at a good price, then surely another will be too, and then the PCs might have to deal with the politics of giving one Prince such an advantage over the other. Which side (of politics) are the PCs really on??

All that fun aside, I assume that the DMG prices for magic items are the absolute optimal price to a keen collector. I'd rule that PCs are very unlikely to get more than half this amount unless they go to extra special lengths.

But hey, maybe I am too cruel ;D