Don't Give Up the Ship (1E 1972, 2E 1975)

[crimhthanthegreat]

I have never seen a copy of Don't Give Up the Ship, can someone tell us (me) something about it?

[Finarvyn]

I have a copy of both 1E and 2E DGUTS and, other than fonts, they are virtually the same. The book is in the same pamphlet-sized publication as other TSR products of the era, pretty much identical in dimensions to Men & Magic or other OD&D rulebooks.

I've never actually played this, but it looks like a general naval warfare system for the sailing ship era. There are rules for wind direction, basic cannons, and so on.

This is from all memory and I can post a table of contents (if anyone is interested) once I get home. As I said, I never actually played the game. I thought somehow it might be similar to the naval rules in The Underworld and Wilderness Adventures but it seems to be somewhat different and more complex.

My hope was that DGUTS would be a pre-OD&D naval rules system the way Chainmail was a pre-OD&D combat system, (since it had both Gygax and Arneson's names on the booklet) but it wasn't really like that.

[crimhthanthegreat]

I would be interested in seeing that table of contents Fin.

[Finarvyn]

From the 1E book (Guidon Games):

BASIC RULES
Introduction
Equipment and Space Needed
Turn Sequence, Scale and Gun Range
The Ships
Sails and Masts
Wind Direction and Force
Movement
Determining Values for Guns, Crew, and Sails
Cannon Fire, Range and Damage
Boarding, Morale and Melee
Victory
Training Game Rules

OPTIONAL RULES
Merchant Ships and Privateers
Additonal Crew Tasks
Special Movement Rules
Sighting
Burning Ships
Special Vessels
Changing Ranges
Special Guns
Gun Weight and Tonnage
Melee Losses

SINGLE SHIP RULES
Sailing Class
Weatherlines
Firing Speed
Shot Types
Loss of a Mast
Special Damage
Damage and Dismounting of Guns
Repairs
Seamanship
Water Depth
Ship Data Sheet
Determination of Victory
Shot Weight – Optional

SINGLE SHIP ACTIONS OF THE WAR OF 1812

GENERAL HISTORICAL ACTIONS

[crimhthanthegreat]

Thank you, that is quite interesting. You said you expected it to be similar to Chainmail, was it instead a more advanced rule set?

[Finarvyn]

What I meant is that Chainmail is a rules set that evolved into OD&D and I had somehow hoped that DGUTS would be similar in that manner.

My thought was that since both Gygax and Arneson had designed DGUTS that there might be clues as to how OD&D evolved. I had heard speculation that OD&D's Armor Class system was somehow derived from the designation of ships-of-the-line (where the best ships are "first class" and the next best are "second class") but really found no such insight. I hoped that this would explain somehow the bizarre way that AC goes down as it gets better. No such luck.

Never played it. When I want ship battles I default to Avalon Hill's Wooden Ships & iron Men instead.

[Stonegiant]

Hey Fin-

As we all know Chainmail evolved into D&D what do you think about DGUTS possibly being evolved into a RPG, say a pirates game?

[Finarvyn]

As much as I would like to see DGUTS turned into something RPG-like, I don't think it works. DGUTS is a sailing-ship miniatures rules system, true, but there doesn't really seem to be much to directly make it evolve into a RPG. For example, the entire character system would have to be created from scratch since soldiers fighting is different than ships fighting. The only "RPG" that seems to come out of DGUTS would probably resemble Star Fleet Battles a lot more than a true role playing game.

I think if I wanted to run a pirates game I would opt for 7th Sea or Pirates of the Spanish Main, two RPGs already set up for the genre.

[darneson]

DGUTS will be re-released by GHQ this summer. No, no RPG in it.
There were actually three editions. Two by GUIDON games and one by TSR.

Dave Arneson

[ffilz]

If you want a sailing game with RPG elements you could try Evil Stevie's Pirate Game which was written for use with LEGO pirate ships but does not require them.

Frank

[darneson]

OK here is the latest. Stillwaiting for a publication opening at GHQ. "Real soon now">

There will be PDF files for all single ship actions in the American Revolution, French Revolution, Napoleonic Wars and, of course, The war of 1812. These are based primarily on a six volume set of NAVAL HISTORY OF GREAT BRITIAN by James.

There are also a set of Campaign rules which I am testing next month. And finially their was a set of "Privateer" rules based on the AWI where each player has a ship, goes raiding, and progress up the command ladder based on how well they do. Pretty well tested but needs anther run through. That's about as close to RPG as DGTS gets.

Dave Arneson
"Dark Lord of Gaming"

[aldarron]

Wondering if Marv or anyone else who has this could give the details of how the morale system worked in the "Boarding, Morale and Melee" section.

[Finarvyn]

Jan 25, 2010 18:17:55 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Wondering if Marv or anyone else who has this could give the details of how the morale system worked in the "Boarding, Morale and Melee" section.

I had a hard time deciding how to answer this question. On one hand I hate to post a quote which is a full rulebook page in length. On the other hand, having not really played DGUTS I won’t claim to be an expert, so giving the text of that passage would seem to be more valuable than trying to make a synopsis of rules which I have never tried out. That seemed worse than not replying at all.

I know that Dave said that DGUTS would see the light of day in a new edition soon, but I can’t find anything online about it. If this excerpt is too lengthy, I can take it down. In the meantime, however, I decided to post the Morale section of the rules.

From DGUTS, TSR Edition, p.9-10:

Odds for boarding parties are dependant upon a number of factors, among them the Morale Multipliers of the crews of each ship and the Morale condition that each crew is under according to battle losses they have suffered.

The morale multipliers for historical actions listed below reflect the fighting ability and general "staying power" of crews from each of the respective nations:

United States, Russia = 4 point Morale = saving throws 2-9
Great Britain, Netherlands = 3 point Morale = saving throws 2-8
Denmark = 2 point Morale = saving throws 2-7
Sweden, France = 2 point Morale = saving throws 2-6
Spain = 1 point Morale = saving throws 2-6
Other Countries = 1 point Morale = saving throws 2-5
Privateers or pirates = 1 point Morale = saving throws 2-4
Soldiers = 1 point Morale = saving throws 2-3

The Morale point value of crews from a specific nation indicates their modifiers in firing odds for a boarding battle (for example, British boarders would get a Multiplier of 3 in boarding actions). The numbers indicated as saving throws are the two dice rolls needed to maintain Morale with Morale rolls are necessary. (Morale rolls are taken on the turn when a mast is lost, and are taken for every 10% of Crew Factors lost due to enemy fire; of course, this means a roll every time a mast falls and every time Crew Factor losses rise past another 10% mark). If a saving throw is not rolled, the crew’s Morale drops one step and the following table is consulted:

Crew , Turns , Multiply Fire By , Multiply melee value by
Flushed with Victory , 2 , 3/2 , 2
Normal , -- , 1 , 1
Shaken , 2 , 1/3 , 1/2
In disorder , 6 , 1/10 , 1/5
Routed , 18 , 0 , 1/30
Surrenders , Until occupied , 0 , 0

Crews that have just successfully completed a contested boarding action rise one step in Morale, and thus it is possible for crews to become “flushed with victory” for 2 turns. Crews that drop one or more steps below normal are affected for the number of turns indicated on the table, and crews coming up steps in Morale must rise through each step for the number of turns indicated. Thus, if a “shaken” crew’s Morale drops to “disorder”, it will be in “disorder” for 6 turns, then will rise to “shaken” for 2 more turns, and then will finally return to “normal” (provided any more rolls taken during those turns do not mean another drop in Morale level). A ship whose crew has “surrendered” will either stop or continue straight on its last heading until occupied. Of course, another friendly vessel may occupy the ship, but the crew which surrendered is unable to resume fighting of any kind for the remainder of the engagement. If an enemy crew occupies the ship, it is considered a prize and reverts to enemy command. However, the prize crew will only attempt to sail the ship to safety, and in no way may it use the enemy’s guns for the remainder of the action.

The various multipliers just discussed are all important when boarding odds are determined, and it is sometimes necessary to redetermine odds if various factors change during turns a boarding battle is in progress. This is especially necessary when new Crew Factors enter a melee in progress, as they receive a multiplier of 2 for the first turn they enter for shock effect.

Hope this helps. I did not compare text from the TSR version with my Guidon Games version, but I suspect they are identical.

[Finarvyn]

Aldarron PMed me about additonal details from DGUTS. I typed up some more material and thought I'd share it. This is the material just in front of what I typed in my previous post....

From page 9 of DGUTS: “Boarding, Morale, and Melee”

Boarding: When ships are within 1” of each other (measure between hulls) they have the option to attempt to grapple. If the two ships are touching or if the ship to be grappled is stopped, the grapple is automatic. Normally a roll of 1, 2, or 3 is necessary for a successful grapple, except when the two ships are heading in opposite directions in which case a 1 must be rolled to grapple. Cutting a grapple is possible on any turn after it is first thrown across, but the grapple cannot be cut without the consent of the crew on the vessel. Of course, this usually means after a spirited boarding battle, and it is not possible to cut a grapple while the crew is involved in a melee. Control of both upper decks is necessary to cut a grapple.

Boarding takes place after a ship has grappled another and the attacking ship details a boarding crew (in written orders) out of the total number of Crew Factors he has on his ship. He may send up to the full compliment he has aboard (minus battle losses, of course) or he may detail some to stay behind (perhaps to operate some of the guns not shielded by the enemy ship, or perhaps a reserve). Then the defender declares how many of his Crew Factors are available to repel the boarders, and odds are figured.

[Finarvyn]

And this is the material just after the section on Morale.

Back to DGUTS, pages 10-11:

Melee: Odds are determined by taking the number of CF attacking X historical morale condition multiplier vs. the number of CF defending X historical morale multiplier X morale condition. The final values are compared, and the odds (-1:1, 3:2, 3:1, 4:1, etc. on up) are determined in favor of either the attacker or the defender.

1:1 melee automatically results on 1, 2, 3
3:2 melee automatically results on 1, 2; roll over on 6
2:1 melee automatically results on 1, 2
3:1 melee automatically results on 1; roll over on 5, 6
4:1 melee automatically results on 1; roll over on 6
5:1 melee automatically results on 1

If a melee occurs automatically, the boarding has become a pitched battle for the first turn and further rolls are not taken until the next turn. If, however, a melee does not occur automatically (there is still a chance one may result, though) there is a chance of an immediate decision depending on further die rolls by each player.

The player with superior odds rolls first, and may roll up to the number of dice indicated by the odds in attempts to obtain the best results. In 1:1 battles, each player rolls one die and results are compared to the table on the following page. In 3:2 battles, the player with the edge may roll up to 3 dice, while the defender may roll up to 2 dice. In 2:1 battles the superior player may roll 2 dice while his opponent rolls once. In battles where the odds are 3:1, 4:1, or 5:1 the superior player may roll up to 3, 4, or 5 dice respectively. On odds of greater than 5:1 the same equivalent of dice is used, but spots may be guaranteed the superior player due to his overwhelming advantage – on 5:1 to 9:1 he automatically adds one more spot on the die; at 10:1 to 14:1 he automatically adds two spots, and so on up, adding one more spot for each extra 6:1 edge.

As mentioned, players try to achieve the highest result on these die rolls. When only one die is rolled, this result must be kept by the player, but when more than one die is rolled, the player has the option to “keep” an early roll if he desires, and is not forced to take the full number of rolls allotted him, even though he has this option. For this reason, the player with superior odds always rolls first so he does not know what his opponent’s roll will be. On odds of 3:2 both players roll secretly so that the opponent’s roll is not known until results are compared (players should have some non-involved person witness the rolls, or should be of mutual trust). With more than one roll, a player may keep an early roll by indicating he will do so, or he may continue in hopes of getting a better result; however, if he does not take an early roll and continues trying for a better result, he must take his last roll no matter what the result. For example, let us take a player with 3:1 odds in his favor – on the first roll a 3 comes up. He decides not to keep the result and wants to try for something better. Next he rolls another 3, and deciding to try once more (with the realization that the final roll will be the result kept) he rolls for the third time. If he rolls a 6 on the lat roll he has done as well as possible; if, however, he rolls a 1 on his last roll, he has done as poorly as possible but must stick with the result whatever it is.

After the player with superior odds has rolled (the player at the disadvantage may observe the results except in 3:2 situations) his opponent’s rolls. The results are compared with the following table:

A tie = If first turn, crews meet briefly and repulse each other back to their respective vessels. Either or both opponents may attempt to cut the grapple (needing 1 or 2 to do so). If the grappler is not severed, the boarding action may resume the next turn. If not a first turn, melee results (unless 3rd turn of a melee, in which case both players roll again until a decision occurs).

Difference of 1 spot = Melee results (unless 3rd turn), winner gains one area.

Difference of 2 spots = Loser drops one morale step; winner advances one area.

Difference of 3 spots = Loser drops two morale steps; winner advances two areas.

Difference of 4 spots = Loser drops three morale steps; winner advances three areas.

Difference of 5 spots = Loser surrenders, winner takes vessel.

Ship Area: Ship areas are foothold, top deck, second deck, third deck, etc. A Brig or Corvette has only one deck, Frigates and Razees two decks, 74 and 80 gun Ships of the line three decks, 90 to 120 Ships of the Line four decks, and any vessel larger than that (indeed a rarity) has five decks. When all the decks have been taken, the ship has surrendered. Crews holding the upper deck that are attacked from below have a 2:1 multiplier in their favor on the first turn of attack only, but this advantage is lost in melee. Crew losses in melee are considered to be negligible, and melees must always end on the third turn (players keep rolling until a result is obtained). Once committed to a melee, crew factors may never be withdrawn until melee is resolved.

To illustrate how boarding odds are determined let us use an example of a Spanish ship with 24 CF (normal morale) attempting to board a British ship with 20 CF aboard that are in disorder. The value of the Spanish boarders would be 24 times 1 (for the Spanish historical morale modifier) times 1 (for having normal morale conditions at the time of the boarding), or 24. The value of the 20 British CF would be 20 times 3 (for the British historical morale modifier) times 1/5 (for being in disorder at the time of the boarding), or 12. Thus the odds would be 24 to 12, or 2:1 in favor of the Spanish. It is easy to see the importance crew quality has in regard to morale.

[DungeonDevil]

Mr. Arneson said that DGUTS would be re-released. Did anything come of this? I tried to snatch a copy up on ebay last year, but didn't get the winning bid, sadly. It would be nice to know if this will ever see the light of day again.

[DungeonDevil]

Bump.
My earlier query still stands unanswered. Anyone?

[Deleted]

Did WOTC acquire the rights along with D&D? If not, rights probably reverted to Dave, and thus to his heirs.

[skars]

To my knowledge, GHQ has not reprinted DGUtS....making my signed copy from Mr. Arneson still the latest version