Writing an "OD&D Edit"

[scogle]

So atm I'm running two campaigns for 4 players each (a couple play in both): one is Mentzer/Cook B/X/M/C/I, and one is the newfangled "Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition". I tried to convince them to try OD&D, because I really want to play it more, but when I showed them the printed-out and bindered LBBs, they lost interest because they found the rules totally incomprehensible (being 3.5e/WoW players ).

I've set about doing a total edit of the OD&D rules. Right now I'm working my way through the first three books, and I'll probably add in color-coded supplemental rules (red=Greyhawk, blue=Blackmoor, etc.). I am currently almost done with Men & Magic; I have only to add in the charts. This is, however, a rough draft.

What I've been doing is going through the books, and rewriting (in simplified language at times) every rule in order, separated into sections like "Races and Classes", "Alignment", "Henchmen/Retainers", etc. Once I have all the rules, tables, and spells written up (with inches converted to ft. for convenience) I'll add in more text to make it even more comprehensible.

This will perhaps consist of some minor, generic fluff, and rules clarifications. For these I've generally been turning to Philotomy's site (such as his rules for how to work in the Chainmail stuff for elves/hobbits/dwarves). When I can't find a clarification there, I turn to Holmes Basic, though this has generally been minor, and is noted where it occurs. The Strategic Review and early Dragon issues have also been a great aid, particularly Gygax's occasional rules articles.

When this is done, I'll probably post it here. However I'm going to think of it as more a "community" project; I'm going to be submitting it to review from you guys, and Philotomy (through his website) and other members here have been so helpful in this that I can't really take all the credit anyway.

This should be done in maybe a month/month-and-a-half. I know this has been done in one or two places on the web before, complete type-ups, but they're hardly what a player would expect to see in a "Players Handbook" or something Too barebones for my group.

[blackbarn]

Sounds great. I wish I had the patience to do something like this, since I think an edited OD&D with Philotomy's ideas spliced in would be just about ideal, as far as rulesets go.

And incidentally, it's interesting to find another player currently running an older version of the game alongside the newest. (It's 4e and Holmes D&D in my case. )

[scogle]

Jul 23, 2008 22:51:10 GMT -6 blackbarn said:

Sounds great. I wish I had the patience to do something like this, since I think an edited OD&D with Philotomy's ideas spliced in would be just about ideal, as far as rulesets go.

And incidentally, it's interesting to find another player currently running an older version of the game alongside the newest. (It's 4e and Holmes D&D in my case. )

Yeah; not to derail this or whatever, but 4e is a fairly fun game depending on what you're looking for. It certainly doesn't feel much like an MMORPG, but you can see some influence from computer games ("item-slots", etc.) If you consider 3.x D&D, then I'd say 4e counts. It certainly feels very very different from "classic" D&D but it's not a super-radical departure from 3.x. It's like a stream-lined 3.x with a new power system (which, in play, doesn't feel too much different from 3.x - just more options in combat; the vancian magic system still exists, albeit a bit castrated).

Anyways.....
One thing I've noticed is that there *is* quite a bit of fluff in the supplements, by OD&D standards anyway. Did you know dwarves come in three varieties, one of which, the "burrowing dwarf", is also known as the gnome? Pretty cool! Also, elves are sometimes "fairy elves", and there are other types too. None of these have any statistical importance, but "dwarf thief" makes more sense if it can actually be "gnome thief".

[driver]

I did a "Men & Magic" book for the players to use in my Wilderlands campaign, and was pleasantly surprised how little time it took, even with laying out the tables in Word. There's just not that much to transcribe in the 3LB, and I added in the classes and spells I use from the supplements along with "boxed text" notes regarding house rules, clarifications, and so on. It's a little under 30 pages of 8-pt Courier, and a significant chunk of that is spell descriptions.

I believe the mere physical act of transcription helped me sort out the rules in my own head, and the project ended up being fun rather than a chore.

[scogle]

Jul 24, 2008 6:46:30 GMT -6 @driver said:

I believe the mere physical act of transcription helped me sort out the rules in my own head, and the project ended up being fun rather than a chore.

Exactly

I will, eventually, include both the Chainmail combat system *and* the "alternative" combat system, though for now I'm focusing on the alternative system as it's just easier to understand. Finarvyn's chainmail thread has been very helpful in this regard.

Also, as far as "Elf multi-classing" goes - i.e. all elves are multiclassed Fighting-Men/Magic-Users - I have included both the RAW approach and the Greyhawk implied rule. Basically, if you follow the RAW then elves choose to be one class or another before each adventure (i.e. after taking an extended rest), and get some benefits like being able to cast spells while wearing magic armor. They would allocate XP based on whichever class they were that day, and get a new, appropriate hit-dice everytime they advanced a level in one or the other

The Greyhawk version functions the same way, only XP is always divided evenly between the Fighting-Man and Magic-User classes. This is, I believe, something which would have been included in the final draft of the OD&D rules if they hadn't been rushed to the printing press. It introduces a penalty to balance the heavy advantages of being an Elf. Under the "LBB/RAW" interpretation, any Magic-User concerned about statistics/power would choose to play an Elf.

After I'm done with this (including the "Referee's Guide" and "Monster Manual"), I will add in all the supplemental rules, along with TSR/Dragon rules/classes/spells/items (all rules to be optional by referee's judgement of course). OD&D+supplements, particularly all 4 supplements, looks almost like a cross between AD&D 1E (complex character options, lots of tables) and Rolemaster (lots of percentile dice), and I think it's worth doing.

[codeman123]

i have been working on the same thing actually... i also did a quick typed up players guide..

[scogle]

Jul 24, 2008 12:07:40 GMT -6 codeman123 said:

i have been working on the same thing actually... i also did a quick typed up players guide..

We could both post them up, and compare 'em and incorporate eachother's interpretations and stuff.

[scogle]

Here's a sneak-peak!!! This section's not quite done, I need to write exactly how the "open traps/doors" thing works for str.

"Sample Character Creation:

Seamus rolls 3d6 for each ability and gets these scores:
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 11
Wisdom: 9
Constitution: 5
Dexterity: 16
Charisma: 8

Seamus could do decently in either the Magic-User or Cleric classes, but because of his low Constitution he chooses to play a Magic-User as he can avoid direct fighting. Seamus's ability scores effect him in these ways:
1.His STR means he will likely be less effective at opening traps/breaking down doors. Most str checks require a 1 on a 1d6.
2.His INT is one above ten, therefore he gets a bonus language.
3.His WIS is average, no effect
4.His CON gives him a -1 to hd, and a 40% chance of surviving resurrection, and surviving the effects of certain spells (polymorph, stone, poison, anything that could be permanent/deadly).
5.His high DEX is fairly useless as he cannot use missile weapons, though if he could he's got +1 to attack rolls. The referee may decide to give a +1 bonus to initiative because of this.
6.His CHA is slightly below average, giving him a maximum of 3 “unusual hirelings” (monsters, etc.), and no bonus or penalty to Loyalty Rating.

Alignment: Lawful
Languages: The character can speak Common, Lawful, and Goblin
Equipment: He starts with 130gp, and spends it thusly:

Dagger
1st-level Spellbook
Mule
Saddle
Saddle Bags
Waterskin
Lantern
Flask of Oil
1 week's worth Iron Rations
54gp

He is carrying 314gpe (gp equivalent by weight) worth of stuff - some being carried by the mule - and therefore has a movement rating of 120' per/ turn. His small sack can hold up to 50gpe.

Now for the raw numbers:
Current Level: Medium
Current XP: 0
XP to next level: 2,500
HD: 1d6-1
Fighting Capability: Man
Spells per/ day: One 1st level spell
AC: 9

Because he is a medium, he is able to research 1st level spells at a cost of 2,000gp/spell, and 1 week's game-time/spell. On the first day, Seamus memorizes a sleep spell, sharpens his dagger, and prepares for adventure!"

[dwayanu]

In "grain of salt/YMMV" territory:

I think the sorting-out-for-oneself aspect of such a project more valuable than putting a more explicit text in players' hands.

When playing AD&D, I dig the relative security of the Players Handbook -- but that's a departure from the ethos I associate with original D&D. It's not better or worse, just different.

[scogle]

Jul 24, 2008 15:09:58 GMT -6 dwayanu said:

In "grain of salt/YMMV" territory:

I think the sorting-out-for-oneself aspect of such a project more valuable than putting a more explicit text in players' hands.

When playing AD&D, I dig the relative security of the Players Handbook -- but that's a departure from the ethos I associate with original D&D. It's not better or worse, just different.

Yeah I can understand that. I'm doing this because of that, and also so my players can better understand Da Rulez. I plan to post this on dragonfoot in finalized form, because I think the OD&D-base rules are like a different game unto themselves. Because of this, I've decided to focus on Chainmail combat, with the Alt. system added later. I already have all the clues, I just have to put the pieces together

[codeman123]

i liked the little excerpt so far.. though i have been leaving out alot of fluff and just getting right down to the rules... really i have been typing my version for people who already know how to play.. even though it would be nice if it had alot of the basic principals really cleaned up and explained to make it newbie friendly.. another issue is mine is not legal in the least bit considering for now i have alot of copy and paste of art as well charts and tables from other original books... but i would very much be up for posting mine and comparing or even collaborating with you on this project.. what would be really cool is if we could really have a nice professional document with original art and such.. if only we could find a good artist that would be willing to contribute.......

[scogle]

You raise an important question: is this legal?

I don't have much knowledge of intellectual property laws, so I honestly don't know. Considering my version will be a total re-write (while remaining fanatically faithful to the original rules), and will likely only be used by something like 0.01% of WoTC's potential customer base, *and* that they would have no interest in marketing such a product themselves . . . we should be safe.

They probably wouldn't even notice, and if they did would they even consider the legal fees necessary to file a lawsuit worth the benefits? This isn't 1990s TSR afterall

I suppose ultimately it's up to the site admins, but considering there are page-scans and word-for-word quotes throughout this website and we haven't had any trouble for it, this should be fine too, as long as I'm not uploading pdf scans of the rules and such, or selling the rules for money.

This "rules edit" is a community project; I am merely the editor. There is no way I would've been able to make sense of many rules without the friendly assistance of members on this site.

One small note: I understand that presenting the "rules as written" is not necessarily in keeping with the old-school spirit. It will be emphasized again and again that any rule can be changed in any way the referee sees fit, and that these rules are meant to be more like guidelines than true set-in-stone Commandments From Above (or Game Designers).

That said, I do think there is something to be said for playing much of the game as it is presented. Gygax and Arneson definitely had an idea of how the game would be played, and the rules-set - with Chainmail included - is far more complete and solid than a brief glance at the unorganized, original books would suggest. I find that the main reason "Classic D&D" gets so much more attention - relatively speaking - than OD&D is that the Classic rules are complete. There is no question about how initiative or morale works, what the combat sequence is, etc.

Most players look for this sort of competence in a rulesbook, even if they ultimately plan to mold the rules to their own wishes to the extent that they are unrecognizable. House-ruling is incredibly essential to OD&D, but I rather like being able to build a mansion of house-rules on top of a sturdy foundation than trying to fix the holes in the foundation myself, if that metaphor makes sense

[codeman123]

well if you want i'll show you mine if you show me yours... lol..

[dwayanu]

At the risk of self-aggrandizement ...

I would be honored if you found some utility in this.

I regret that I have no comparable advice for other types, but perhaps other hands can fill the want.

[blackbarn]

If it's a total rewrite it is legal, as the rules of a game cannot be copyrighted, only their expression. The main difficult area is if you reproduce expressions of the rules like charts and tables the same as they were in the real book. I'm not a lawyer, but I've read it so many times in discussions of legally copying D&D I know the answer by now.

Oh, and naturally you can't use trademarks of WotC, such as the name of the game, certain monsters, etc. But you're right, they almost certainly won't sue you even if you did. The worst you might get is a cease and desist notice since this is a small fan project online.

[scogle]

Jul 26, 2008 16:43:29 GMT -6 dwayanu said:

At the risk of self-aggrandizement ...

I would be honored if you found some utility in this.

I regret that I have no comparable advice for other types, but perhaps other hands can fill the want.

Yeah I'm gonna add that too.

Right now I have all of the rules which are player-related in the LBBs written down, and am working out some of the nuts-and-bolts of
the Chainmail combat system, but it's basically all there. Now I just need to add in my prose, "what od&d is" type-stuff as well as large
community quotes - all properly sourced of course.

I really want OD&D to be revived. I mean, this isn't just a game for pasty-faced nerds like me . . . they played it on naval bases! It's a *game*, like Yahtzee or Monopoly, just an extremely fun game. You don't have to speak High Gygaxian or be a fan of fantasy to play it and enjoy. Just draw a map on graph paper, roll some dice for monster/treasure distribution, get some friends together, and play!

[coffee]

Jul 27, 2008 12:38:30 GMT -6 scogle said:

I really want OD&D to be revived. I mean, this isn't just a game for pasty-faced nerds like me . . . they played it on naval bases! It's a *game*, like Yahtzee or Monopoly, just an extremely fun game. You don't have to speak High Gygaxian or be a fan of fantasy to play it and enjoy. Just draw a map on graph paper, roll some dice for monster/treasure distribution, get some friends together, and play!

That may be the best summation of the game I've ever read.

Have an exalt for that!

[codeman123]

thats exactly what i would like to see in the game... a promotion more towards younger people and the general public.. thats why i think a restatement of the rules more clearly defined would be a really good idea..

[scogle]

Hey guys, I'll be on vacation 'til the 14th, so the rules edit shouldn't be up until after that.

Thanks for the support

[codeman123]

Scogle how goes your rules draft? Any more progress on this?

[philotomy]

*bump*

(Hey, Scogle, love your Flynn avatar.) :thumbs-up:

[codeman123]

Hey i thought his might be of note to any of us working on are own od&d edits. This guy did a really cool job even though he combined all the source materials its still really cool. Kind of a more finished Holmes edition.
www.mediafire.com/?wzmtzz9zo5t

[codeman123]

By the way for whoever is interested which is proubly not many here but i am still working on my just 3lbb edit. I had already finished it and was going to post it soon but all my d&d pdfs and other home brewed works where deleted so i have started from scratch and it should be completed soon.

[coffee]

Sept 24, 2008 0:37:17 GMT -6 codeman123 said:

... but all my d&d pdfs and other home brewed works where deleted ...

Dude, you have my deepest sympathies.

And everybody else: Back up your important files! Don't let this happen to you!

[codeman123]

Yeah thanks... it really sucked. I think my little brother proubly did it on accident luckily i was in a decent mood and didn't kill him. Regardless i had alot of stuff in those folders and i mean alot of stuff some really hard to find stuff...

[Stormcrow]

Jul 23, 2008 21:58:56 GMT -6 scogle said:

I tried to convince them to try OD&D, because I really want to play it more, but when I showed them the printed-out and bindered LBBs, they lost interest because they found the rules totally incomprehensible (being 3.5e/WoW players ).

There’s your problem right there. Never show them the rules first; just play the game and let them have lots of fun. Show them the rules afterward, after they know that it’s fun.

[Arminath]

Sept 24, 2008 0:24:47 GMT -6 codeman123 said:

Hey i thought his might be of note to any of us working on are own od&d edits. This guy did a really cool job even though he combined all the source materials its still really cool. Kind of a more finished Holmes edition.
www.mediafire.com/?wzmtzz9zo5t

Interesting read, I wonder what design reason Druids and Assassins gain Hit Dice at every level, while the other classes stop gaining Hit Dice around Name Level?

[James Maliszewski]

Oct 5, 2008 14:54:30 GMT -6 Arminath said:

Interesting read, I wonder what design reason Druids and Assassins gain Hit Dice at every level, while the other classes stop gaining Hit Dice around Name Level?

I'd assume it's because they do in AD&D. The assassin gets 1 HD per level in OD&D too and the OD&D druid nearly does (he has 11 HD at 13th level, which is the highest available for the class).