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Post by ffilz on Mar 17, 2008 22:21:23 GMT -6
I was thinking of the following for simplifying the thief: Level | Open Locks | Remove Traps | Sneak | Listen at Doors | Climb Walls | Backstab | 1-4 | 1-2 | 1-2 | +1 to surprise | 1-2 | 85% | x2 | 5-8 | 1-3 | 1-3 | +1 to surprise | 1-3 | 90% | x3 | 9+ | 1-4 | 1-4 | +2 to surprise | 1-4 | 95% | x4 |
Halflings, which is the only race I allow for thieves (who are limited to 6th level, 7th with 17 dexterity, 8th with 18 dexterity) would get +1 to listen at doors and no other bonuses. I didn't bother with pick pockets. The climb walls of course could be turned into a save vs. falling on d20 (of 4+, 3+, 2+) instead of a percentile. This increases the chances at low levels (and renders the move silently as an increased chance of gaining surprise), but does reduce the chances at high levels. If one really wanted, one could add a row for 13+ Level | Open Locks | Remove Traps | Sneak | Listen at Doors | Climb Walls | Backstab | 13+ | 1-5 | 1-5 | +2 to surprise | 1-5 | 95% | x5 |
Frank
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on Apr 4, 2008 17:42:01 GMT -6
I was in the middle of doing this exact same thing, porting the thief back to 3LBB, as Greyhawk already starts to feel a lot more AD&D to me. Forgive my newness here, therefore I'm not familiar with exactly your play style... I'm curious why you don't allow Humans to be thieves as well, that would seem more in line with the LBB letting Humans be anything and the other humanoid races be also-rans. (Reading it a second time, it seems you may mean only OTHER race besides humans, otherwise why not build the +1 to listen into the chart.) I would think the d20 with adjustments roll for Climb Walls would be more 3LBB consistent than the %. I think your 13+ line makes them quite powerful at an early level, but I'd have to playtest it to try it out. I'd cut it off at their named level. I really like how you've essentially made it into a single stat for most skills, allowing you really to break it down into just Thief Skills (open/remove/listen/pick pockets), Sneak, Climb and Backstab. I also really like the Sneak vs. Move Silently change. It brings the usefulness into context, i.e. "Do this before combat, player!", instead of having this % that just sits there. I might also roll their Read Languages roll into their Climb Roll check as well, essentially breaking breaking it down into the "%" column, but making it instead into a check against attribute column. To keep in line with the reaching of the highest named level at level 10 (Master Thief), I might break it into 3 level chunks instead of 4 levels (which I know breaks from the GH talk of every 4 levels, but I was already breaking away from GH anyhow). Level Skills Sneak Climb/Read Backstab 1-3 1-2 +1 -1 +1/x1 4-6 1-3 +1 -2 +1/x2 7-9 1-3 +2 -3 +1/x3 10+ 1-4 +2 -4 +2/x4
The numbers under Climb/Read are adjustments to d20 rolls against dex or int/wis. The Backstab I added a bonus +1 "to hit" at level 10 to make that jump an even more special jump. Again, this is all mental play, I'd have to playtest these to see how attractive or not this made Thieves. I love the simplicity of the table, a lot. You've given me a great jumping off point for my own experiments.
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Post by philotomy on Apr 4, 2008 18:04:15 GMT -6
I'll preface my comments by saying that I'm not a big fan of the Thief. However, assuming the Thief is going to be used, here's my thoughts: Re: The chart in general I like it better than the GH interpretation. It's simpler, uses the 1d6 mechanic for most stuff, et cetera. Re: Sneak I often use an adjustment to surprise for non-thief characters when they attempt to be stealthy (see the example at the end of my Thief musing, linked above). If the Thief class has a special ability to sneak that gives a +1 to surprise, does that mean that other classes shouldn't get a +1 bonus to surprise if they try to be stealthy? If so, I don't like that; it's a limitation on other classes that didn't exist, before. If not, then a 1st-8th level Thief's sneak ability is not really special at all. Re: Climb Walls I think I'd prefer a d20 roll, if the increments are always 5%, anyway.
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on Apr 4, 2008 18:15:19 GMT -6
Re: Sneak I often use an adjustment to surprise for non-thief characters when they attempt to be stealthy (see the example at the end of my Thief musing, linked above). If the Thief class has a special ability to sneak that gives a +1 to surprise, does that mean that other classes shouldn't get a +1 bonus to surprise if they try to be stealthy? If so, I don't like that; it's a limitation on other classes that didn't exist, before. If not, then a 1st-8th level Thief's sneak ability is not really special at all. I would think you'd just add the bonus on top of what you'd add for any other character. So if you've allowed a 3 or 4 in 6 for a normal character, the thief would be 4 or 5 at low levels and 5 or 6 (automatic) at higher levels, which seems to fit the comments in your blog. I don't think you need to eliminate the player thinking portion and description of the gameplay at all to include thieves into the mix. Just give them a bigger bonus than you would if there were a group that doesn't include them (thus removing the problem of the crating a dungeon that has traps, etc. and just assuming or not assuming a thief will be in the group). My other thoughts on the Thief to make him not just an out of combat character is to essentially make him a dex based combatant, this should capture the feeling of the Robin Hoods, Zorros, and Sinbads type Thieves. I'll have to think on it some more, because I want to retain the 3LBB feel to my Thieves when I make them...
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Post by coffee on Apr 4, 2008 23:53:45 GMT -6
Frank, I like what you've done here. Have an exalt!
The only change I'd make is the Climb Walls skill. I'd make it a 2d6 roll. Say, 7 or less at 1-4, 8 or less at 5-8, and so on. Not that there's anything wrong with percent dice, just that I'm gradually leaning toward a totally d6 (for the players) OD&D. Just my little way.
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sham
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 385
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Post by sham on Apr 5, 2008 0:14:00 GMT -6
I've gone 'Thief-less' with my OD&D campaign, but I added delving tasks, influenced by the basic ones (open doors, find secret doors, listen at doors, etc) included in the LBB, which cover a lot of these Thiefly skills and use d6's only. Anyone can perform these tasks imc. I do think that your example of an OD&D Thief is really good, though! imc, I lump find secret doors into a catch all task, Search, which is just that, and can also reveal the presence of traps. I notice you have no such skill for your Thief. Any reason? The only skill that jumps out at me has been mentioned by previous posters, that being Climb Walls. All those %'s look out of place! I like Coffee's 2d6 idea. If my players scream for a Thief, I might just borrow this one! PS - I love the idea for Sneak as a catch-all stealthy approach to gaining Surprise. Would this only function when the Thief was alone? When does the proposed Thief get to backstab?
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Post by doc on Apr 6, 2008 20:57:10 GMT -6
As I really had some issues with the way that OD&D thieves were handled, I did a similar revamping of the thief class. I used the same mechanic for all the abilities, though. I used 2d6 because not only did that give a decent range without becoming ridiculous, but it is also the same mechanic used for clerics to turn undead (thus adding a degree of internal consistancy to the game mechanics).
For the skills I used Stealth (moving silently and hiding in shadows), Find/Remove Traps, Hear Noise, Climb Walls, and Subterfuge (picking pockets, palming items, placing things on another's person, and similar acts of quick dexterity).
I also used 12th level as a general stopping point, but I made the allowance that a thief of sufficient skill and reputation could make it to 13th level and gain the title King of Thieves, of which there is only a single one in any land.
Doc
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Post by ffilz on Apr 6, 2008 21:10:57 GMT -6
I did indeed mean halflings and humans are allowed to be thieves.
I would definitely consider making the climb walls a d20. I was picking percentages for it that weren't all that different from the Greyhawk percentages. It would be trickier to make similar percentages with 2d6, but that idea has appeal, though I will be using d20 <= attribute for off the cuff attribute checks, so d20 for climbing isn't so bad.
As to other's sneaking, I'm up in the air on that one. I guess I could see circumstances where I'd allow a non-thief a +1 to surprise, in which case, sure, a thief who takes the same precautions should get that bonus AND his thief bonus.
For backstack, my thought is that I will allow backstabs similar to how 3.x allows sneak attack, though perhaps with not quite such an automatic (like the opponent could choose to face the thief and give the fighter just a +2 to hit for attacking from behind). I haven't really decided, but backstab should be way easier that the way I used to play it where thieves had to work hard to ever get it. Backstab is the thief's contribution to combat.
Trap finding I figured would be up to player description just as per the rules. I suppose hard to find traps might require some kind of roll to find. I wouldn't want to give the thief an improved ability to find secret doors being that is a significant reason to have an elf along (though thieves would never get to "notice" secret doors, and dwarfs of course get to "notice" certain kinds of traps).
Surprise bonus would only work when thief is alone, though perhaps in certain circumstances the thief could grant it to the others (for example, helping the party set up an ambush).
Frank
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Keps
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 118
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Post by Keps on Jan 28, 2012 1:35:11 GMT -6
Not sure when this game became so difficult that everyone has to "simplify" it. I'll always just assume its a new school thing. I like your skills checks for thieves. I would use them for NPCs, for efficiency reasons. If you like playing thieves though, you want your percentile dice.
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on Jan 28, 2012 2:03:07 GMT -6
Not sure when this game became so difficult that everyone has to "simplify" it. I'll always just assume its a new school thing. I like your skills checks for thieves. I would use them for NPCs, for efficiency reasons. If you like playing thieves though, you want your percentile dice. The point of the exercise was that many that played and enjoyed OD&D felt like Greyhawk was a step towards the dark side... to whit, skill checks for thieves. When rolling dice became a substitute for roleplaying (read thinking, not acting), something changed. Frank's excellent effort was done at a time when this board was heavily exploring the idea of porting the theif back to a more 3LBB ideal, instead of a GH feel. This board is pretty cordial, so I'll just close with making assumptions about new school was probably a careless thought, but the point of this exercise is very definitely NOT a new school thing, quite the opposite actually.
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Keps
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 118
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Post by Keps on Jan 28, 2012 3:35:24 GMT -6
Not sure when this game became so difficult that everyone has to "simplify" it. I'll always just assume its a new school thing. I like your skills checks for thieves. I would use them for NPCs, for efficiency reasons. If you like playing thieves though, you want your percentile dice. The point of the exercise was that many that played and enjoyed OD&D felt like Greyhawk was a step towards the dark side... to whit, skill checks for thieves. When rolling dice became a substitute for roleplaying (read thinking, not acting), something changed. Frank's excellent effort was done at a time when this board was heavily exploring the idea of porting the theif back to a more 3LBB ideal, instead of a GH feel. This board is pretty cordial, so I'll just close with making assumptions about new school was probably a careless thought, but the point of this exercise is very definitely NOT a new school thing, quite the opposite actually. Sorry for the offense, all of the use of the word "simplify", especially with clowns and their clones just kills me. Which thief skill check were you referring too that supplements role-playing?
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on Jan 28, 2012 15:00:14 GMT -6
Sorry for the offense, all of the use of the word "simplify", especially with clowns and their clones just kills me. Which thief skill check were you referring too that supplements role-playing? The opposite, skill checks can easily replace role-playing, if lazy. There's a ton of thief threads from around the time period of this original post, do a google site search for thief and you should be able to see more of them. The thief is one of the most controversial topics on the board, really. Some people love em, some people hate em. There are easily 10 or more different alternate takes on the thief class.
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Post by jonathan on Mar 10, 2012 18:17:38 GMT -6
I've always thought that for Open Locks/Remove Traps that it would be better to turn the die rolls into how long it takes the Thief to perform the task successfully. Just spitballing here:
L1-4: 1d8 turns L5-8: 1d6 turns L9-12: 1d4 turns L13+: 1d3 turns
Adjust the duration by -1 or -2 for easy locks/traps (a duration of 0 or less means that the Thief was able to jigger it instantly) and by +1 or more for difficult ones. Then have the player roll a d20 at the end of each turn of the attempt - a natural 1 indicates they've jammed the lock or trigger the trap.
This means that with a Thief around (who's an expert at this kind of thing) you'll almost always be able to bypass that trap or lock if you are willing to wait and guard them long enough, possibly through one or more wandering monster checks.
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