Post by aldarron on Aug 8, 2010 12:07:39 GMT -6
This will be revised as new info becomes available:
Earlier I posted some thoughts on the authorship of Supplement II Blackmoor but I’ve been having some more fun plumbing its mysteries more closely. Supplement II strikes me as a kind of bastard stepchild because, unlike the other supplements, most of it either never made it into later D&D or AD&D products or did so only with a serious amount of revision and change. And yet, there is really a lot of gold in there to be mined.
Maybe one thing that discourages some from making more use Supplement II is that it is mostly known for three things – two new and controversial classes, an unwieldy hit location system that was later disowned by its own author, and the Temple of the Frog. Another is that it’s seen as a hodge-podge of ideas that are difficult to sort out.
Authorship of the various parts of the supplement is a topic that comes up from time to time, sometimes with the claim that little of Dave Arneson original text is present or that Steve Marsh and Tim Kask and/or Gary Gygax wrote all the “good” parts. Unfortunately but not surprisingly, 30+ years after the fact, Steve and Tim aren’t sure about much of the details of what they wrote or didn’t, so we’re left with best guesses based on the text itself and what we can be reasonably sure of. So, based on the above, here is my breakdown:
Characters:
Monk – Brian Blume, and (reluctantly) Tim Kask.
Assassin – Fluff mostly Arneson, with some crunch reworked by Kask including most notably the assassination table.
Sage – Arneson (character class) substantially reworked (60% according to Tim), as an NPC instead by Kask.
New Rules:
Hit Location/Weapon length – Arneson, supposedly by request.
Poison Weapons/Ferocity Attack – Arneson, edited by Kask. The ferocity attack is classic Arneson value doubling.
Underwater Adventures – Arneson, Kask, Gygax, Marsh – the introduction to this section sounds rather Arnesonian but the rules themselves don’t really. I’m purely guessing, but I suspect that Kask set aside/reworked most of whatever crunch rules Arnenson may have submitted here (if any) and likely incorporated material from Marsh and/or Gygax. Claims have been made that Gygax had a hand in these.
Lycanthropy – Marsh. Curiously these short rules on lycanthropy are to be found as an entry in the monster list. Steve Marsh has hinted on his DF Q&A that they were among the scattered ideas he sent in.
Diseases – Arneson. Arneson also wrote a similar article on diseases for the first Pegasus magazine.
New Monsters:
This list is interesting because there is no apparent rhyme or reason to its organization; it's definitely an interesting and curious mix. The arrangement of the monsters look like two or three, or maybe even four separate lists that were simply added on to each other. Tim Kask has said the giant creatures were Arnesons, all of which are listed before the entry for Sahaugin. Indeed, most, if not all the monsters before Sahaugin have similar wording and often reference each other and do appear to be from Dave. The first one listed is the Merman. Steve has said he thinks the Merman was his, but he’s not certain. I very much doubt it. The Merman reads like an Arneson entry, not like a Marsh one. A good bit of it is devoted to mermen attacking ships – an Arneson hallmark, and Mermen are closely referenced several times in Arneson’s giant monsters section. Mermen were also a part of Arneson’s early Blackmoor. I think that there can be little doubt that the list from Mermen to Fire Lizard are Arneson’s. The others after this are more problematic. Steve said he did the water monsters, but the water monsters between fire lizard and Sahaugin do not have the exotic names he used for his other monsters, nor do they have the within-type variations he favors, and there’s none of his unique wording like “class VII armor”. I don’t think they are all his. They look like more of Arnesons, especially as some of them are more “giant types, but being mostly underwater creatures, its also possible that some come from other TSR sources. Giant sharks, for example, have a classic Arnesonian wording (such as hobbits being bite sized) and reference Mermen. Portuguese MOW have hit location (tentacles 1 point each). Dolphins, on the other hand, are the first entry to mention Steve Marsh’s Sahaugin and are followed by Marsh’s sea elves, so if I had to bet, I’d peg Dolphins as Marsh’s too. I’d break apart the list this way:
Mermen to Portuguese Man of War – Arneson
Dolphins to Mashers – Steve Marsh; according to Kask, there may be some Arneson material peppered in here too – such as the values comments in Marshes breakdown of Sahaugin leader frequencies. Also possible that some critters come from other TSR sources. Arneson may well have submitted a (redundant) Lizardman which Kask used to flesh our Sahuagin further. It is one of the longest entries in Supplement II.
Magic Items:
No clear way to sort them out but Marsh has claimed them and I'm sure the bulk of these are from him, perhaps all of them.
Adventure:
Temple of the Frog - Arneson, with only minimal editing by Kask. Marsh's statement that Gygax converted it must be a misunderstanding, generalizing from the rest of Arnesons material (which was somewhat converted by Kask). My reason for saying this is that anyone who has read TotF will be struck by all the non standard FFC like approaches, mechanics and terminology used. There's nothing Gygaxian about it, not even the way stats or lack thereof are presented. Also keep in mind that at the time, Steve was a freelance writer and did not work for TSR until 5 years later, so would not have first hand knowledge. Simply put, this is Arneson's work.
Earlier I posted some thoughts on the authorship of Supplement II Blackmoor but I’ve been having some more fun plumbing its mysteries more closely. Supplement II strikes me as a kind of bastard stepchild because, unlike the other supplements, most of it either never made it into later D&D or AD&D products or did so only with a serious amount of revision and change. And yet, there is really a lot of gold in there to be mined.
Maybe one thing that discourages some from making more use Supplement II is that it is mostly known for three things – two new and controversial classes, an unwieldy hit location system that was later disowned by its own author, and the Temple of the Frog. Another is that it’s seen as a hodge-podge of ideas that are difficult to sort out.
Authorship of the various parts of the supplement is a topic that comes up from time to time, sometimes with the claim that little of Dave Arneson original text is present or that Steve Marsh and Tim Kask and/or Gary Gygax wrote all the “good” parts. Unfortunately but not surprisingly, 30+ years after the fact, Steve and Tim aren’t sure about much of the details of what they wrote or didn’t, so we’re left with best guesses based on the text itself and what we can be reasonably sure of. So, based on the above, here is my breakdown:
Characters:
Monk – Brian Blume, and (reluctantly) Tim Kask.
Assassin – Fluff mostly Arneson, with some crunch reworked by Kask including most notably the assassination table.
Sage – Arneson (character class) substantially reworked (60% according to Tim), as an NPC instead by Kask.
New Rules:
Hit Location/Weapon length – Arneson, supposedly by request.
Poison Weapons/Ferocity Attack – Arneson, edited by Kask. The ferocity attack is classic Arneson value doubling.
Underwater Adventures – Arneson, Kask, Gygax, Marsh – the introduction to this section sounds rather Arnesonian but the rules themselves don’t really. I’m purely guessing, but I suspect that Kask set aside/reworked most of whatever crunch rules Arnenson may have submitted here (if any) and likely incorporated material from Marsh and/or Gygax. Claims have been made that Gygax had a hand in these.
Lycanthropy – Marsh. Curiously these short rules on lycanthropy are to be found as an entry in the monster list. Steve Marsh has hinted on his DF Q&A that they were among the scattered ideas he sent in.
Diseases – Arneson. Arneson also wrote a similar article on diseases for the first Pegasus magazine.
New Monsters:
This list is interesting because there is no apparent rhyme or reason to its organization; it's definitely an interesting and curious mix. The arrangement of the monsters look like two or three, or maybe even four separate lists that were simply added on to each other. Tim Kask has said the giant creatures were Arnesons, all of which are listed before the entry for Sahaugin. Indeed, most, if not all the monsters before Sahaugin have similar wording and often reference each other and do appear to be from Dave. The first one listed is the Merman. Steve has said he thinks the Merman was his, but he’s not certain. I very much doubt it. The Merman reads like an Arneson entry, not like a Marsh one. A good bit of it is devoted to mermen attacking ships – an Arneson hallmark, and Mermen are closely referenced several times in Arneson’s giant monsters section. Mermen were also a part of Arneson’s early Blackmoor. I think that there can be little doubt that the list from Mermen to Fire Lizard are Arneson’s. The others after this are more problematic. Steve said he did the water monsters, but the water monsters between fire lizard and Sahaugin do not have the exotic names he used for his other monsters, nor do they have the within-type variations he favors, and there’s none of his unique wording like “class VII armor”. I don’t think they are all his. They look like more of Arnesons, especially as some of them are more “giant types, but being mostly underwater creatures, its also possible that some come from other TSR sources. Giant sharks, for example, have a classic Arnesonian wording (such as hobbits being bite sized) and reference Mermen. Portuguese MOW have hit location (tentacles 1 point each). Dolphins, on the other hand, are the first entry to mention Steve Marsh’s Sahaugin and are followed by Marsh’s sea elves, so if I had to bet, I’d peg Dolphins as Marsh’s too. I’d break apart the list this way:
Mermen to Portuguese Man of War – Arneson
Dolphins to Mashers – Steve Marsh; according to Kask, there may be some Arneson material peppered in here too – such as the values comments in Marshes breakdown of Sahaugin leader frequencies. Also possible that some critters come from other TSR sources. Arneson may well have submitted a (redundant) Lizardman which Kask used to flesh our Sahuagin further. It is one of the longest entries in Supplement II.
Magic Items:
No clear way to sort them out but Marsh has claimed them and I'm sure the bulk of these are from him, perhaps all of them.
Adventure:
Temple of the Frog - Arneson, with only minimal editing by Kask. Marsh's statement that Gygax converted it must be a misunderstanding, generalizing from the rest of Arnesons material (which was somewhat converted by Kask). My reason for saying this is that anyone who has read TotF will be struck by all the non standard FFC like approaches, mechanics and terminology used. There's nothing Gygaxian about it, not even the way stats or lack thereof are presented. Also keep in mind that at the time, Steve was a freelance writer and did not work for TSR until 5 years later, so would not have first hand knowledge. Simply put, this is Arneson's work.
