|
Post by James Maliszewski on Feb 25, 2008 23:53:16 GMT -6
Here's my stab (no pun intended) at the "magical dabbler" (a la the Gray Mouser or Cugel the Clever) class that, in my game, will take over for the non-existent Thief. As I noted elsewhere, the "light fighter" is just a Fighting Man variant and the "trap/reconnaissance guy" is just a specialized version of what I think all characters, regardless of class, should be able to attempt.
Anyway, look it over and let me know where you see room for improvement.
(This is supposed to be a table, but I can't get it to look right)
Rogues Dice for Accumulated Hits Spells and Level 1 2 3 0 1 1,800 2 1 3,600 3 1 7,200 4 2 15,000 5 2 30,000 6 2 1 60,000 7 2 1 115,000 8 2 2 230,000 9 2 2 400,000 10 2 2 1
All Rogues are either Neutral or Chaotic. They may employ both daggers and swords. They can wear up to leather armor but cannot employ shields. They have the ability to read most (80%) languages.
Starting at 2nd level, when they may cast magic-user spells, they gain the ability to use spells written on scrolls, provided they are not of the clerical type. However, spells of a level higher than that they can cast themselves have a 10% chance that the effect will be the reverse of that intended.
Rogues use the saving throw progression of magic-users, while they use the attack progression of clerics.
|
|
|
Post by Zulgyan on Feb 26, 2008 4:52:11 GMT -6
That table needs some editing for format The rest looks interesting.
|
|
|
Post by James Maliszewski on Feb 26, 2008 6:42:46 GMT -6
That table needs some editing for format Yes, I know, but I can't make heads or tails of how to use the table function on these boards.
|
|
|
Post by Zulgyan on Feb 26, 2008 8:25:41 GMT -6
An easy way is to "print screen" the table, and post it as an image.
|
|
WSmith
Level 4 Theurgist
Where is the Great Svenny when we need him?
Posts: 138
|
Post by WSmith on Feb 26, 2008 8:26:19 GMT -6
Rogue XP | Dice for Accumulated Hits | 1-2-3 Spells and levels | 0 | 1 | nil | 1,800 | 2 | 1 | 3,600 | 3 | 1 | 7,200 | 4 | 2 | 15,000 | 5 | 2 | 30,000 | 6 | 2-1 | 60,000 | 7 | 2-1 | 115,000 | 8 | 2-2 | 230,000 | 9 | 2-2 | 400,000 | 10 | 2-2-1 |
[/td][/tr] [/table] Whew! That was some work. There has to be a better way to make a table.
|
|
|
Post by dekelia on Feb 26, 2008 8:35:39 GMT -6
Is this what you were going for? Rogues | HD | Spells and Level | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1,800 | 2 | 1 | 3,600 | 3 | 1 | 7,200 | 4 | 2 | 15,000 | 5 | 2 | 30,000 | 6 | 2 1 | 60,000 | 7 | 2 1 | 115,000 | 8 | 2 2 | 230,000 | 9 | 2 2 1 | 400,000 | 10 | 2 2 1 |
EDIT: oop....beat to it.
|
|
WSmith
Level 4 Theurgist
Where is the Great Svenny when we need him?
Posts: 138
|
Post by WSmith on Feb 26, 2008 8:38:42 GMT -6
All Rogues are either Neutral or Chaotic. They may employ both daggers and swords. They can wear up to leather armor but cannot employ shields. They have the ability to read most (80%) languages. I am not sold on the languages part, but that might just be me. I like the other things above. I hate to be the one that brings complexity to OD&D, but I, myself, would go with a 10% chance of mishap per spell level above that for which the rogue can cast. You could also go for a simple and straightforward failure if desired. I like that. What magic items can the rogue use? Only those allowed to magic user, or those allowed to other classes to? Do they use spell books? (I would say absolutely YES on that one.) Are they allowed to research spells (I would say yes to this) and enchant and create magic items at high levels (I would say no.) In Tunnels & Trolls, the rogue has to find each spell he has through adventure or black market purchase, unlike the wizard that gains the entire spell list from his wizard's guild when leveling up. Is this something that might be considered for the rogue wizard?
|
|
|
Post by James Maliszewski on Feb 26, 2008 9:33:13 GMT -6
Whew! That was some work. There has to be a better way to make a table. Thanks for this; it is much appreciated. I agree that there has to be a better way to handle this, but darned if I know it.
|
|
|
Post by James Maliszewski on Feb 26, 2008 9:44:02 GMT -6
I am not sold on the languages part, but that might just be me. I like the other things above. The read languages ability of the Supplement I Thief is something I actually like about the class. It's a nice, simple, non-magical ability that, in my opinion, lends a vagabond air to the class, as if they wander here and there and pick up little bits of occasionally useful knowledge. That's part of what I'm thinking about it. I don't think that'd be too complex and, looking back on it, I probably should have done something like that. I also think I should convert the percentage chance to a 1D6 or 1D20 roll, as I loathe percentiles. My gut instinct is to let them use magic-user items, as well as any magical versions of weapons and armor in which they're proficient. I'm admittedly one of the heretics that doesn't like limiting magic swords to Fighting Men only, so others can alter this if they choose. Otherwise, I agree with your suggestions above. Absolutely. The general idea behind the class is someone with magical potential who learned the rudiments of spellcasting before abandoning his master (or having his master killed or whatever) and is now using what he knows to get by and survive. He lacks the discipline and proper training to become a true magic-user, but he still possesses enough native ability that he might be able to cast spells he comes across in his adventures.
|
|
jrients
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 411
|
Post by jrients on Feb 26, 2008 9:51:23 GMT -6
If you are going to allow thieves to wield magic blades, I suggest that you make some sort of adjustment to the magic sword rules. Sentient weapons should be harder to control when not carried by someone with the iron will of true warrior.
|
|
|
Post by James Maliszewski on Feb 26, 2008 9:53:46 GMT -6
If you are going to allow thieves to wield magic blades, I suggest that you make some sort of adjustment to the magic sword rules. Sentient weapons should be harder to control when not carried by someone with the iron will of true warrior. That's a possibility. Perhaps this belongs in another thread or perhaps it's already been discussed at length, but what exactly is the rationale behind limiting magic swords to the Fighting Man?
|
|
jrients
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 411
|
Post by jrients on Feb 26, 2008 10:44:33 GMT -6
My rationale is that it is one of the few completely exclusive class abilities of the original OD&D fighter. The moment you introduce a new class that can wield magic swords, you're doing to the fighter what a new fireball lobber does to the m-u.
|
|
WSmith
Level 4 Theurgist
Where is the Great Svenny when we need him?
Posts: 138
|
Post by WSmith on Feb 26, 2008 10:55:53 GMT -6
My rationale is that it is one of the few completely exclusive class abilities of the original OD&D fighter. The moment you introduce a new class that can wield magic swords, you're doing to the fighter what a new fireball lobber does to the m-u. Very good food for thought. I am on the fence about it myself, but only cause of being an AD&D guy for all those years. I tend to think that maybe now the fighting man should be the sole master of magical swords, especially considering in OD&D magical swords are supposed to be generally more flavorful than "+1 sword." perhaps a magical sword in the hands of a rogue provides only a +1 bonus to hit maximum and none of the other abilities can be used. I dunno.
|
|
WSmith
Level 4 Theurgist
Where is the Great Svenny when we need him?
Posts: 138
|
Post by WSmith on Feb 26, 2008 11:00:07 GMT -6
Maybe a 1 in 6 chance for scroll failure for each spell level above that for which the rogue is able to cast. i have grown to not like d% as much as I used to also. So, a rogue that can cast 1st level spells, finds a scroll with a 6th level spell on it has a 5 in 6 chance for spell failure or mishap. I kinda like that.
|
|
WSmith
Level 4 Theurgist
Where is the Great Svenny when we need him?
Posts: 138
|
Post by WSmith on Feb 26, 2008 11:03:27 GMT -6
After some thought, I am understand the read languages ability.
What about prime requisite? Should the rogue have a split STR/INT like the elf or just one or the other? Or a different stat completely, (which I would nt be too fond of. )
|
|
|
Post by James Maliszewski on Feb 26, 2008 11:15:35 GMT -6
My rationale is that it is one of the few completely exclusive class abilities of the original OD&D fighter. The moment you introduce a new class that can wield magic swords, you're doing to the fighter what a new fireball lobber does to the m-u. The funny thing is that, for me, the better Hit Dice and combat abilities of the Fighting Man are sufficient to give the class a natural niche, though I do see your point. I presume then that the Supplement I Thief is disliked round these parts because it is allowed to use magic swords without qualification?
|
|
|
Post by James Maliszewski on Feb 26, 2008 11:16:07 GMT -6
Maybe a 1 in 6 chance for scroll failure for each spell level above that for which the rogue is able to cast. i have grown to not like d% as much as I used to also. So, a rogue that can cast 1st level spells, finds a scroll with a 6th level spell on it has a 5 in 6 chance for spell failure or mishap. I kinda like that. I do too. That's an excellent idea.
|
|
|
Post by James Maliszewski on Feb 26, 2008 11:17:34 GMT -6
What about prime requisite? Should the rogue have a split STR/INT like the elf or just one or the other? Or a different stat completely, (which I would nt be too fond of. ) I was thinking Int as the Prime Requisite myself, although there's an impish part of me now that wants to go with alternating Str and Int, with Int being the Prime Requisite for any level where the Rogue gains access to a new level of spells.
|
|
jrients
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 411
|
Post by jrients on Feb 26, 2008 11:37:07 GMT -6
I presume then that the Supplement I Thief is disliked round these parts because it is allowed to use magic swords without qualification? Actually I dislike the Supp I thief for totally different reasons. I think the percentiles thief abilities are the first step onto the slipperly slope of elaborate skill systems and special abilities that has dragged later editions down.
|
|
|
Post by James Maliszewski on Feb 26, 2008 12:22:24 GMT -6
I think the percentiles thief abilities are the first step onto the slipperly slope of elaborate skill systems and special abilities that has dragged later editions down. You'll get no arguments from me on that score. It's more that I've noticed a lot of people round here are very attached to the notion of only Fighters having the ability to wield magic swords and the Thief horns in on that territory (though Fighters do get exceptional Strength scores in Greyhawk -- I wonder if that was intended as a sop?).
|
|
|
Post by Zulgyan on Feb 26, 2008 18:25:17 GMT -6
Looks like a fun character to play!
Couple of questions:
¿Do you use greyhawk HD?
¿Don't you think the XP requirement is too high?
|
|
|
Post by James Maliszewski on Feb 26, 2008 19:20:03 GMT -6
¿Do you use greyhawk HD? ¿Don't you think the XP requirement is too high? I was not planning to use Greyhawk HD. I much prefer D6 for all and I built the class with that in mind. I do worry about the XP progression. It's slower than the standard Thief, which I think is reasonable, but I wasn't sure if it was too slow. What would you recommend?
|
|
|
Post by Zulgyan on Feb 26, 2008 19:24:04 GMT -6
So, you'll be using that HD progression along side the ones in OD&D 3LB?
|
|
|
Post by James Maliszewski on Feb 26, 2008 19:27:38 GMT -6
So, you'll be using that HD progression along side the ones in OD&D 3LB? I'm not sure. I'm starting to consider other alternative HD progressions than those in the 3LB for all classes, but I haven't yet made up my mind. I must admit that I actually don't like the "chunky" HD progressions and prefer something a little smoother. I'm even toying with the notion of D6 per level for all classes, with Fighters getting +1 per die per level. Again, I'm still not sure.
|
|
|
Post by Zulgyan on Feb 26, 2008 19:31:56 GMT -6
Let's see, this rogue has:
Limited weapon selection = cleric Limited armor < cleric Second class HP = cleric Third class casting ability (worser than M-U, worser that cleric) < cleric. Wizard Magic > cleric Read language < Turn Undead.
This should start giving you an idea about the XP progression. This class has similitarties with the AD&D 2da Ed Bard, maybe you should check out his XP progression.
|
|
|
Post by James Maliszewski on Feb 26, 2008 19:34:59 GMT -6
This class has similitarties with the AD&D 2da Ed Bard, maybe you should check out his XP progression. That's not surprising, since the bard class was the starting point in my mind for the Rogue. I like the general idea of the bard, but I always found the concept less coherent than I would have liked, so I decided to go with a more "narrow" vision and this is where I wound up. Thanks for the suggestion.
|
|
|
Post by Zulgyan on Feb 26, 2008 19:37:07 GMT -6
Also, wizard saves < cleric saves.
I don't think this class should advance slower than the cleric.
|
|