[video] Frank Mentzer on the origins of D&D

[havard]

www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=805&p=8896#p8896 has a couple of links to a series of videos showing Frank Mentzer talk about D&D. Seems to me like he gives a fairly accurate description of how the game was invented.

When I first watched it I thought Dave's contribution seemed small, but when I think about it, coming up with the idea of playing single characters rather than vast armies is a pretty big deal. I mean that is what the game is about isnt it?

Havard

[Deleted]

Very enjoyable. Thanks for the link.

[greyharp]

Aug 30, 2008 9:43:33 GMT -6 havard said:

coming up with the idea of playing single characters rather than vast armies is a pretty big deal. I mean that is what the game is about isnt it?

Thanks for the link havard, I look forward to watching that.

On the single character issue, it's interesting reading Greg Svenson's "The First Dungeon Adventure" in Fight On! Issue #2 where he said "The rules we used were based on Chainmail..." and then reading in the Chainmail Rules on page 25, in the section entitled "Man-to-Man Combat", which starts "Instead of using one figure to represent numerous men, a single figure represents a single man."

Wheels within wheels.

[Deleted]

Long time lurker from Belgium here, first post!

Yes, thanks havard! I'll watch that after work. So I haven't seen the videos for now, but remember Frank Mentzer wasn't there when "Blackmoor D&D" was invented …

To greyharp :

I registered just to be able to reply to your message!

I feel what you wrote is a common misunderstanding of that issue …

[Please understand English is not my first language, nor the second! It is very difficult for me to try to explain complex ideas and I certainly don't intend to be rude. Thanks…]

I suppose you will admit there is a considerable difference between wargaming with many figures, each figure representing one man as allowed by Chainmail (which was a relatively well known practice for wargamers at the time Chainmail was invented, practice described in some books or publications GG admitted he had read), and roleplaying a character (without any figure) as Greg Svenson (a great guy!) decribes in "The First Dungeon Adventure" (which was what Blackmoor was all about).

I don't think the fact that part of Chainmail was used (apparently for a very short time, according to DA) as the base of the fighting rules is very important; other fighting rules could have been used (and soon were); it's the freedom of actions and the "immersion" allowed by the rolepaying idea that's important (it wasn't called "roleplaying" at the time, of course).

Once again, the idea was "in the air". Remember Dave Wesely "Braunsteins" (around '67/68) or Michael Korns "The Modern War in Miniature" (1966), but not in a fantasy context nor with dungeons or without miniatures (for Korns) …

In short, "one figure = one man" was not invented by GG (and he never pretended that, AFAIK) and is not roleplaying.

I hope my "Frenchglish" makes sense and that Greg Svenson will jump to explain this better than me!

Jacques.

[ Greg, if you read this, I'm very sorry I didn't send you my questions some years ago; the language difficulties frightened me too much - once again …]

[greyharp]

jevrard, I'm glad my post made you stop lurking and sign up. Your post demonstrates your passion for the hobby and the more of that the better.

I think perhaps you may have misunderstood my post, but that probably has less to do with your English skills and more to do with my terse reply. A quick Google search shows that the phrase "wheels within wheels":

...has generally come to mean something that is not easily understood; that there is more to the situation than may appear on the surface...that one must look past the superficial to see deeper into a problem or situation.

...or in other words, perhaps Gary influenced Dave who influenced Gary, which is something a bit more complex than one person claiming the crown and title of "Creator". And that too, of course, isn't saying that this is the beginning of the story. It's a much greyer scenario, not so black and white. And since most people find black and white ideas comfortable, a lack of certainty is something many may find frustrating or even unacceptable.

Hope that all makes sense.

Dave

[codeman123]

Well first cool vids!! Second Jevard nice english actually!!

[thegreyelf]

Great stuff! Love the shoutout he gives to C&C in part 3.