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Post by Falconer on Sept 4, 2007 19:45:08 GMT -6
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Post by crimhthanthegreat on Sept 5, 2007 6:37:35 GMT -6
Falconer, an exalt for posting this info! I would say that some of those rules go back to the beginning and some most likely do not. If you take the info posted their and combine it with the First Fantasy Campaign book you should be able to get pretty close to an Arnesonian campaign.
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 7, 2007 22:04:14 GMT -6
I suspect that Dave's rules were some blend of FFC plus Adventures in Fantasy and I wonder how much the resembled OD&D at all.
Not to diminish Dave's contributions to OD&D, but I note that he seems to have had a love for "hit location charts" (as per supplement II Blackmoor) and percentile-based numbers with lots of equations (ala FFC). Both of these elements appear somewhat different from the OD&D style, which is more simple and streamlined.
At least, that's my interepretation of what I've read about Dave's game.
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Post by makofan on Dec 8, 2007 15:51:34 GMT -6
My thought was always that Dave had the basic conception and Gygax made it playable, then added in his own ideas
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 9, 2007 9:06:40 GMT -6
Dave had the basic conception and Gygax made it playable In general I agree with your statements, Makofan, but I think also that quickly we hit this huge gray area. It's pretty well established that Gary put the books together in a playable format. What is hard to pin down is who had which ideas first. Accounts on the web would indicate that Dave created the first ever "dungeon crawl" but I'm not sure who first attributed individualized stats to a single figure in a miniatures game. Somewhere along the line, a game of Chainmail must have been set up where a person must have said "I want Gandalf on my team" (or some similar statement) and players looked at each other wondering if you could do that. This would truly have been the genesis of the RPG, but no one can recall when it happened to to whom. It's possible that it happened more-or-less simultaneously to more than one person in different groups. To make it more complex, several groups of gamers were constantly exchanging ideas and rules suggestions. An idea could quickly spread from group to group in a hurry, but no one could recall exactly who came up with it first. To further muddy the waters authorship became a legal question, and this spawned AD&D versus Basic D&D. Finger pointing, name calling, and legal processes have not entirely cleared anything up but instead have muddled the exolution of the game into conflicting editions. The fact that two names stand out as being co-creators of the greatest game in history is enough for me. Applause to both Gary and Dave for their vision. [soapbox] The last thing I want to do on these boards is take sides in the argument about who did what. DF is clearly on Gary's side while other boards often take Dave's side. I'd rather stay in the middle where both sides can have fun. [/soapbox]
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Post by makofan on Dec 9, 2007 9:23:53 GMT -6
Yah, mine was a simplification. I've read so many accounts I think it's important not to marginalize Dave's contribution, nor to denigrate Gary's.
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Post by pjork on Dec 9, 2007 12:17:45 GMT -6
The fact that two names stand out as being co-creators of the greatest game in history is enough for me. Applause to both Gary and Dave for their vision. A third name should stand out.
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Post by badger2305 on Dec 9, 2007 12:49:12 GMT -6
Dave Wesely's a cool guy; so is Ross Maker, his partner in Discovery Games. I wrote about all of this awhile ago, www.mage-page.com/index.php?pageid=17, for the Mage Con folks. Some of my facts are a bit off, now, in light of later documentation, but the general ideas are something I am working on for a book.
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Post by ffilz on Dec 10, 2007 12:49:03 GMT -6
Back in the early days, I had heard about supposed role playing games prior to D&D, and now with the power of the internet, I have learned about them, but in my mind, RPGs as a defined hobby began in 1974 with the publication of D&D. Prior to that, you had to know someone who knew someone to get involved. With the introduction of D&D, it became possible to "discover" role playing games by finding the game on a store shelf.
Plus, I think even in 1977 when I started playing D&D, people were still trying to understand what made D&D different from the miniatures wargames that preceeded it.
So sure, bring forth the names of folks who did role playing type stuff before the publication of D&D, but Gygax and Arneson are the names that are going to stick as those who made the hobby accessible.
Frank
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Post by crimhthanthegreat on Dec 10, 2007 22:07:44 GMT -6
I kind of think of D&D as Columbus and the others as Lief Erickson. There is being first and there is having a major impact. D&D had the major impact.
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WSmith
Level 4 Theurgist
Where is the Great Svenny when we need him?
Posts: 138
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Post by WSmith on Jan 30, 2008 9:53:41 GMT -6
This is actually brilliant!:
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sham
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 385
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Post by sham on Apr 4, 2008 22:41:41 GMT -6
The fact that two names stand out as being co-creators of the greatest game in history is enough for me. Applause to both Gary and Dave for their vision. A third name should stand out. Thanks for the link! In case you haven't followed this link in the past month, David Wesely has responded to the thread.
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darneson
Level 3 Conjurer
Co-Creator of OD&D
Posts: 56
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Post by darneson on May 22, 2008 18:27:45 GMT -6
Many of your questions could be answered but I am bound legally to not do so.
Wesely had individual players with their own goals. But no character classes or development. (I.e. levels..)
NO I was not really in favor of hit locations after the first few games. I felt that it slowed things up too much.
We used CHAINMAIL three times but the COMBAT MATRIX was too simple and could not be expanded. I recall our last matrix filled a big part of the basement wall. So I went back to using my old ACW naval rule combat system.
Dave Arneson
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on May 22, 2008 18:42:50 GMT -6
Many of your questions could be answered but I am bound legally to not do so. Dave, I'm curious, are you bound in perpetuity, or is there some point at which you could speak more openly about the early days?
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darneson
Level 3 Conjurer
Co-Creator of OD&D
Posts: 56
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Post by darneson on May 23, 2008 15:08:34 GMT -6
I am legally bound forever.
Arneson
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Post by dwayanu on May 23, 2008 15:16:05 GMT -6
Did the "ACW naval rule system" involve rolling AC or less on 2d6, or what?
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Post by foster1941 on May 23, 2008 15:18:48 GMT -6
I am legally bouind forever. Arneson That truly sucks. But at least you're here and willing to talk about those things you're able to talk about
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Post by Finarvyn on May 24, 2008 14:30:07 GMT -6
I went back to using my old ACW naval rule combat system. This intrigues me. I know that the introduction to the Zeitgeist Blackmoor d20 book mentions that you were tired of running Napoleonics campaigns and ended up with something more like Fantasy gaming, but I hadn’t heard a lot about your use of Civil War naval rules. If Chainmail wasn’t your miniatures “rules of choice”, then what was? Was there a published Napoleonics rules set, or one in-house? When you mention ACW naval rules, was this tied to your Don’t Give Up the Ship or something else? Just trying to see inside your head, Dave!
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Post by dwayanu on Jul 5, 2008 9:54:03 GMT -6
I recently discovered that I had a copy of the FFC book that I had not looked at in years. Some things that leaped out in flashes of recognition:
A)Characters starting with fairly large HP totals, then getting saves versus damage rather than more HP as level bonuses.
B)Spending on special interests to convert treasure to experience points.
C)Spells involving formulae, ingredients and preparations (like potions and scrolls) rather than being "fire and forget."
D)The hit locations (more playable with "A " above) and height/reach rules from D&D Supplement II.
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Post by pjork on Jul 6, 2008 17:01:40 GMT -6
I am legally bound forever. That is a disservice to history.
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Post by captainjapan on Mar 6, 2024 13:39:52 GMT -6
I'm going to park these here for the sake of comparison. The first is a photo of a portion of the Introduction of the First Fantasy Campaign by David Arneson. The second is an explanation by Arneson, in his 1980 court deposition, of the contribution he made to Dungeons & Dragons which also happens to mention the First Fantasy Campaign. The first thing to occur to me is the confused release date of D&D, according to Arneson. Also, upthread, darneson mentions Hit Locations. That feature did not endure in Blackmoor play, anymore than in other people's games.
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Post by havard on Mar 7, 2024 13:22:33 GMT -6
Where is this interview from Captainjack?
It is interesting that some of the letters Dave sent to Gary that they at the time believed were no longer in existence may be among those that will be released in the upcoming D&D History book from WotC.
It also seems to confirm my suspicion that material from the FFC was originally part of what was intended for D&D Supplement II: Blackmoor, material that TSR managed to misplace.
-Havard
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Post by captainjapan on Mar 8, 2024 10:18:00 GMT -6
Where is this interview from Captainjack? It is interesting that some of the letters Dave sent to Gary that they at the time believed were no longer in existence may be among those that will be released in the upcoming D&D History book from WotC. It also seems to confirm my suspicion that material from the FFC was originally part of what was intended for D&D Supplement II: Blackmoor, material that TSR managed to misplace. -Havard This is from the court files. It is actually Arneson's lawyer asking the questions, I believe. Here is a sample of some letters that appear in the book, cross posted from the Guidon draft thread: I would also be interested to know whether Gygax held back any of Arneson's original submissions for later publication in Supp. II that were originally intended for the boxed set. Maybe, alderron knows. I will be surprised to see any naval or aerial combat pages when the new book comes out.
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