Dave Arneson's House Rules

[Falconer]

One interesting account of a recent game with Dave Arneson.

[crimhthanthegreat]

Falconer, an exalt for posting this info! I would say that some of those rules go back to the beginning and some most likely do not. If you take the info posted their and combine it with the First Fantasy Campaign book you should be able to get pretty close to an Arnesonian campaign.

[Finarvyn]

I suspect that Dave's rules were some blend of FFC plus Adventures in Fantasy and I wonder how much the resembled OD&D at all.

Not to diminish Dave's contributions to OD&D, but I note that he seems to have had a love for "hit location charts" (as per supplement II Blackmoor) and percentile-based numbers with lots of equations (ala FFC). Both of these elements appear somewhat different from the OD&D style, which is more simple and streamlined.

At least, that's my interepretation of what I've read about Dave's game.

[makofan]

My thought was always that Dave had the basic conception and Gygax made it playable, then added in his own ideas

[Finarvyn]

makofan said:

Dave had the basic conception and Gygax made it playable

In general I agree with your statements, Makofan, but I think also that quickly we hit this huge gray area. It's pretty well established that Gary put the books together in a playable format. What is hard to pin down is who had which ideas first.

Accounts on the web would indicate that Dave created the first ever "dungeon crawl" but I'm not sure who first attributed individualized stats to a single figure in a miniatures game.

Somewhere along the line, a game of Chainmail must have been set up where a person must have said "I want Gandalf on my team" (or some similar statement) and players looked at each other wondering if you could do that. This would truly have been the genesis of the RPG, but no one can recall when it happened to to whom. It's possible that it happened more-or-less simultaneously to more than one person in different groups.

To make it more complex, several groups of gamers were constantly exchanging ideas and rules suggestions. An idea could quickly spread from group to group in a hurry, but no one could recall exactly who came up with it first.

To further muddy the waters authorship became a legal question, and this spawned AD&D versus Basic D&D. Finger pointing, name calling, and legal processes have not entirely cleared anything up but instead have muddled the exolution of the game into conflicting editions.

The fact that two names stand out as being co-creators of the greatest game in history is enough for me. Applause to both Gary and Dave for their vision.

[soapbox] The last thing I want to do on these boards is take sides in the argument about who did what. DF is clearly on Gary's side while other boards often take Dave's side. I'd rather stay in the middle where both sides can have fun. [/soapbox]

[makofan]

Yah, mine was a simplification. I've read so many accounts I think it's important not to marginalize Dave's contribution, nor to denigrate Gary's.

[pjork]

admin said:

The fact that two names stand out as being co-creators of the greatest game in history is enough for me. Applause to both Gary and Dave for their vision.

A third name should stand out.

[badger2305]

Dave Wesely's a cool guy; so is Ross Maker, his partner in Discovery Games.

I wrote about all of this awhile ago, www.mage-page.com/index.php?pageid=17, for the Mage Con folks. Some of my facts are a bit off, now, in light of later documentation, but the general ideas are something I am working on for a book.

[ffilz]

Back in the early days, I had heard about supposed role playing games prior to D&D, and now with the power of the internet, I have learned about them, but in my mind, RPGs as a defined hobby began in 1974 with the publication of D&D. Prior to that, you had to know someone who knew someone to get involved. With the introduction of D&D, it became possible to "discover" role playing games by finding the game on a store shelf.

Plus, I think even in 1977 when I started playing D&D, people were still trying to understand what made D&D different from the miniatures wargames that preceeded it.

So sure, bring forth the names of folks who did role playing type stuff before the publication of D&D, but Gygax and Arneson are the names that are going to stick as those who made the hobby accessible.

Frank

[crimhthanthegreat]

I kind of think of D&D as Columbus and the others as Lief Erickson. There is being first and there is having a major impact. D&D had the major impact.

[WSmith]

This is actually brilliant!:

6) The +X on a magic sword represents the amount of positive magical energy in that weapon. When you meet a AC -3 creature, you need to make your THAC0 roll and you must have a +3 weapon because you need that much "positive" magic to counter the "negative" magic that protects that creature - thereby allowing your physical weapon to hurt things like ghosts and stuff. Part of going into dungeons was to retreive these things and most monsters would not weild magic items because they were "positive" magic.

[sham]

pjork said:

admin said:

The fact that two names stand out as being co-creators of the greatest game in history is enough for me. Applause to both Gary and Dave for their vision.

A third name should stand out.

Thanks for the link!

In case you haven't followed this link in the past month, David Wesely has responded to the thread.

[darneson]

Many of your questions could be answered but I am bound legally to not do so.

Wesely had individual players with their own goals. But no character classes or development. (I.e. levels..)

NO I was not really in favor of hit locations after the first few games. I felt that it slowed things up too much.

We used CHAINMAIL three times but the COMBAT MATRIX was too simple and could not be expanded. I recall our last matrix filled a big part of the basement wall. So I went back to using my old ACW naval rule combat system.

Dave Arneson

[busman]

May 22, 2008 18:27:45 GMT -6 darneson said:

Many of your questions could be answered but I am bound legally to not do so.

Dave,

I'm curious, are you bound in perpetuity, or is there some point at which you could speak more openly about the early days?

[darneson]

I am legally bound forever.

Arneson

[dwayanu]

Did the "ACW naval rule system" involve rolling AC or less on 2d6, or what?

[foster1941]

May 23, 2008 15:08:34 GMT -6 darneson said:

I am legally bouind forever.

Arneson

That truly sucks. But at least you're here and willing to talk about those things you're able to talk about

[Finarvyn]

May 22, 2008 18:27:45 GMT -6 darneson said:

I went back to using my old ACW naval rule combat system.

This intrigues me. I know that the introduction to the Zeitgeist Blackmoor d20 book mentions that you were tired of running Napoleonics campaigns and ended up with something more like Fantasy gaming, but I hadn’t heard a lot about your use of Civil War naval rules.

If Chainmail wasn’t your miniatures “rules of choice”, then what was? Was there a published Napoleonics rules set, or one in-house? When you mention ACW naval rules, was this tied to your Don’t Give Up the Ship or something else?

Just trying to see inside your head, Dave!

[dwayanu]

I recently discovered that I had a copy of the FFC book that I had not looked at in years. Some things that leaped out in flashes of recognition:

A)Characters starting with fairly large HP totals, then getting saves versus damage rather than more HP as level bonuses.

B)Spending on special interests to convert treasure to experience points.

C)Spells involving formulae, ingredients and preparations (like potions and scrolls) rather than being "fire and forget."

D)The hit locations (more playable with "A " above) and height/reach rules from D&D Supplement II.

[pjork]

May 23, 2008 15:08:34 GMT -6 darneson said:

I am legally bound forever.

That is a disservice to history.

[captainjapan]

I'm going to park these here for the sake of comparison. The first is a photo of a portion of the Introduction of the First Fantasy Campaign by David Arneson. The second is an explanation by Arneson, in his 1980 court deposition, of the contribution he made to Dungeons & Dragons which also happens to mention the First Fantasy Campaign. The first thing to occur to me is the confused release date of D&D, according to Arneson. Also, upthread, darneson mentions Hit Locations. That feature did not endure in Blackmoor play, anymore than in other people's games.

David Arneson's replies appear below in blue.


We were in communication with them in Lake Geneva, including Mr. Gygax, in connection with a Napoleonic Campaign and mentioned to them that we were doing some fantasy adventures set in a dungeon around a town I had conceived and made up called "BLACKMOOR". one of our visits down there in the spring, we took several individuals that were residents of Lake Geneva down into the dungeon that I had made up for that which had, up until then, been used up here. They were very interested in acquiring additional information. They connnunicated with me by telephone and by letter over the next few months and we exchanged information and data -predominantly by phone, but also with some written correspondence - and a further, more extensive set of rules came about, elaborating upon the original concepts that had been used by myself in the Blackmoor Campaign. And it came about that there seemed to be some interest in doing a set of rules that would cover it more extensively than just for the small group of individuals involved and might possibly be sold to some publisher for publication. Mr. Gygax approached several publishers without any success and it was decided at that time, since he had some financing available in Lake Geneva and had begun a small game company called TSR - I believe it was a partnership, however, at that date - that they would do it themselves. And during the course of the year 1975, '74 and '75, I believe, the bulk of the original "DUNGEONS & DRAGONS" was worked out via correspondence, mail, and a few visits and was eventually published I believe in December of '74 or early '75.

Q First of all, let's take this correspondence that you referred to. Is any of that still in existence?



A I have Mr. Gygax's replies to my letters.



Q And where are your letters?



A I sent them to Mr. Gygax.



Q And you didn't keep copies?



A No.



Q Well, tell me essentially what was in these letters that you say you sent to Mr. Gygax?



A I communicated with him ideas as to how to generate characters, giving them various attributes, how they might increase in what is referred to in "D & D" as experience level, the use of hit location and a combat system using hit dice, the populating of the dungeon with monsters, the awarding of treasures, what sort of treasure, whether it be gold, silver, jewels, magic items, a series of outdoor encounters, how to go about populating the dungeon. I'm sure I've forgotten something.



Q Now, you also referred --



MR. WEINSTEIN: Excuse me. I would like the witness to finish his answer.



Q I thought you were finished. Are you finished?



A Among other things, yes.



Q Now, you also referred to phone calls. What was transmitted in these phone calls you referred to?



A I discussed with Mr. Gygax some of the games we had played, problems encountered, solutions to the problems, approaches to the game were discussed in detail as to how matters should be handled that might come up in the course of the game. Virtually every aspect of the game was discussed by phone at one time or another.



Q Now, other than the letters that you referred to which apparently are no longer in existence, did you furnish any other written material?



A There were, with the letters, copies of my original dungeon and the information I had given my players as well as the rules I had used as guidelines in any refereeing of the games and stories about -- stories that some of the players had written up about their adventures.



Q Is any of this material still in existence?



A Some of the original materials and the adventures appeared in the work "FIRST FANTASY CAMPAIGN".



Q This was published later, after "D & D"?



A Yes. This was published in late 1977.



Q I'm talking about the actual materials that you say you furnished TSR prior to publication of "D & D". Is any of that still in existence?



A Other than that which appeared in "FIRST FANTASY CAMPAIGN", no.



Q I'm talking about the materials themselves that you say you furnished. Do you have --



MR. WEINSTEIN: Physical?



MR. PUERNER: Right.



Q (Mr. Puerner, continuing) Do you have copies of any of that material?



A Yes.



Q Then, have you produced those copies in this litigation?



A As they have all appeared in "FIRST FANTASY CAMPAIGNM, that was presented to my attorneys.



MR. HIRSCH: Off the record, please.

(Discussion held off the record.)



Q All right. Let's get this clarified. I'm trying to pin down exactly what you furnished - the physical form - to TSR prior to the publication of "D & D" which had something to do with the final work.



A As I said, the outlines for the encounter charts, the hit dice system, the combat system for hit location, the treasures and magic items, additional monsters in the dungeon, how to go about setting up a campaign as I sent him information on my campaign that I had set up.



Q All right. Again, are any of these materials that you just referred to in existence that you know?



A The materials that I sent to Mr. Gygax, I do not know if they still exist. As I am trying to explain, what items were still in my possession that had not been published by TSR, I had published in "FIRST FANTASY CAMPAIGN". There are no items outside of what has appeared in publication that still exists to my knowledge .

[havard]

Where is this interview from Captainjack?

It is interesting that some of the letters Dave sent to Gary that they at the time believed were no longer in existence may be among those that will be released in the upcoming D&D History book from WotC.

It also seems to confirm my suspicion that material from the FFC was originally part of what was intended for D&D Supplement II: Blackmoor, material that TSR managed to misplace.

-Havard

[captainjapan]

Mar 7, 2024 13:22:33 GMT -6 havard said:

Where is this interview from Captainjack?

It is interesting that some of the letters Dave sent to Gary that they at the time believed were no longer in existence may be among those that will be released in the upcoming D&D History book from WotC.

It also seems to confirm my suspicion that material from the FFC was originally part of what was intended for D&D Supplement II: Blackmoor, material that TSR managed to misplace.

-Havard

This is from the court files. It is actually Arneson's lawyer asking the questions, I believe.

Here is a sample of some letters that appear in the book, cross posted from the Guidon draft thread:




I would also be interested to know whether Gygax held back any of Arneson's original submissions for later publication in Supp. II that were originally intended for the boxed set. Maybe, alderron knows. 


I will be surprised to see any naval or aerial combat pages when the new book comes out.