The Other Magic System for D&D

[Finarvyn]

Whilst surfing the web I encountered an interesting thread on [url=http://www.rpgjunction.com/forums/general-discussions/74866-the-other-magic-system-for-
d&d.html] The Other Magic System for D&D[/url].

Original Poster: (with spelling edited by me, and emphasis mine)

…reminded me of a rumor I head awhile ago, which in the very early days of OD&D he [Arneson] had developed an alternate magic system, completely different from the "Fire and Forget" system that became the standard D&D and AD&D one. Was this alternative system in Blackmoor? Was it ever actually published at all? If so, has anyone actually played a permanently game or campaign graphically using it?

The answers on the message board weren’t very helpful, making reference to supplement II or FFC but apparently no first-hand knowledge at all on the subject. Can anyone shed some light on this rumor...?

[gsvenson]

Yes, Dave had a different and unique magic system in our early games. I was very deliberately not playing a magic user, so I am not up on the details. Other guys from the old group, like Pete Gaylord, Richard Snider, Jim Abler or Kurt Krey would probably be able to tell you how it worked.

[calithena]

I've seen it said that the original 'magic spells' were entirely scroll-driven, you found a scroll and used it, and that magic characters could use more scrolls or something like that, but there wasn't really 'spells known' type stuff at the beginning.

That scroll story is consistent with DA also having an alternate magic system early on. Svenny, do you recall 'scroll only' magic dungeons in the very early days?

[gsvenson]

calithena said:

That scroll story is consistent with DA also having an alternate magic system early on. Svenny, do you recall 'scroll only' magic dungeons in the very early days?

I am probably the wrong person to ask about magic in the early games. Pete Gaylord was the Wizard of the Woods, but I didn't adventure with him very often. I was part of a group that played on Saturdays. I think that Pete played more in the evenings. When we did adventure together, what I remember was that his power came from the fruit from his forest - there was a very funny episode when he was trying to cast a spell by breaking open what looked like a water melon.

We didn't really "see" the evil wizards (Kurt Krey and Jim Abler) when they were casting spells against us as they met with Dave seperately from us (the "good" guys) and we generally didn't even get close enough to see them.

Most of the early adventure parties that I was in were primarily fighters with an elf (Jim Barber), dwarf (Dave Belfry), cleric (Mike Carr) and/or hobbit (Rick Johnson - Mel aka Mello) joining us, depending on who showed up that day.

As I recall, the other major magic users in our games started playing later, after we started play testing the OD&D rules.

[Falconer]

I read somewhere, it might even be in FFC itself, that preparing spells meant mixing potions rather than memorizing from a book. You ran out of spells for the day because you ran out of potions! Regards.

[gsvenson]

falconer said:

I read somewhere, it might even be in FFC itself, that preparing spells meant mixing potions rather than memorizing from a book. You ran out of spells for the day because you ran out of potions! Regards.

You are probably right, the water mellon I referred to might have just been ingredient for the spell.

[Falconer]

In Blackmoor, magic followed the "Formula" pattern for most magic. The reason behind limiting the number of spells that a Magic User could take down into the Dungeon was simply that many of the ingredients had to be prepared ahead of time, and of course, once used were then powerless. Special adventures could then be organized by the parties to gain some special ingredients that could only be found in some dangerous place.

Progression reflected the increasing ability of the Magic User to mix spells of greater and greater complexity. Study and practice were the most important factors involved. A Magic User did not progress unless he used Spells, either in the Dungeon or in practice (there was no difference) sessions. Since there was always the chance of failure in spells (unless they were practiced) and materials for some spells were limited (determined simply by a die roll) the Magic User did not just go around practicing all the time. The Magic User could practice low level spells all the time, cheaply and safely, but his Constitution determined how often he could practice without rest. Thus, the adventurers might want a Magic User to come with them only to find him lying exhausted.

So to progress to a new level, one first learned the spells, and then got to use that spell. There was no automatic progression, rather it was a slow step by step, spell by spell progression.

[robertthebald]

If I remember correctly, there was more than one way to gain spells. Part of the reason my character was a recluse was because of all the goodies I found. I withdrew to my tower to research them and gain the spells.

In the last Blackmoor adventure David ran here last December, he told us he would do something that went back to the original idea of spells. This is that they originally came from Elven "singing" and Dwarven runes. He called this particular adventure fantasy karaoke. We had to sing our spell (literally).If he thought we were not enthusiastic enough (or got something wrong), then the spell did not work exactly right. It turned out to be more fun than it sounds.

[Deleted]

robertthebald said:

We had to sing our spell (literally).If he thought we were not enthusiastic enough (or got something wrong), then the spell did not work exactly right. It turned out to be more fun than it sounds.

Dunno, it soulds pretty fun to me.

Actually playing in Dave's world would be awesome.

[aldarron]

I think the thing that stands out to me in researching the early days of D&D and the Blackmoor campaign is that Mr. Arneson had lots of ideas and wasn't inclined to explain to much about the rules "between his ears" to his players. Today we are accustomed to thinking in terms of standard rules, but in those first couple of years rules in Blackmoor were in a constant flux and Arneson was trying more than one way of doing things. My impression is that this is true of both the magic and combat systems. The "alchemical" componenet magic was one way and probably was the first system (I'm guessing), but Arneson has also mentioned the use of spell points in early Blackmoor and Robert the Bald tells us of the singing method - both of which appear in Adventures in Fantasy, which Arneson is on record in this forum as saying magic in Blackmoor was handled "pretty much" as in AIF. Elven song and Rune magic in AIF doesn't actually require the player to sing, but that would be a fun way to do it. It seems to me that at some point all three kinds of magic were probably operating simultaneously.

[Malchor]

Sept 19, 2009 6:27:02 GMT -6 aldarron said:

I think the thing that stands out to me in researching the early days of D&D and the Blackmoor campaign is that Mr. Arneson had lots of ideas and wasn't inclined to explain to much about the rules "between his ears" to his players. Today we are accustomed to thinking in terms of standard rules, but in those first couple of years rules in Blackmoor were in a constant flux and Arneson was trying more than one way of doing things. My impression is that this is true of both the magic and combat systems. The "alchemical" componenet magic was one way and probably was the first system (I'm guessing), but Arneson has also mentioned the use of spell points in early Blackmoor and Robert the Bald tells us of the singing method - both of which appear in Adventures in Fantasy, which Arneson is on record in this forum as saying magic in Blackmoor was handled "pretty much" as in AIF. Elven song and Rune magic in AIF doesn't actually require the player to sing, but that would be a fun way to do it. It seems to me that at some point all three kinds of magic were probably operating simultaneously.

Just went down this rabbit hole myself.

As aldarron mentions, in reply to, "Can you elaborate on how you handled magic in the early days?" Mr. Arnerson responded, "Pretty much the way AIF did it. Again you picked what you got and found the elements you needed."

Also to illustrate what aldarron mentioned about experimentation, or perhaps not just one way for magic to work, here's a break down of magic spells in FFC:

Pg. 50: "In Blackmoor magic followed the "Formula" pattern for most magic." A bit about MU progression, "Progression reflected the increasing ability of the Magic user to mix spells of lIfl1alllf and greater complexity." A little on, "chance of failure," and "practice." All described in very broad strokes.

Pg. 19: some info on Super Berries, the woods they grow in and hints at uses.

Pg. 14: talks about a factory in the Egg of Coot that "turns out spells, for selling." With some info on failure chances of these spells. As well as spells sold by Ran of Ah Fooh, "These spells can be used by any person who also gets an instruction sheet for that spell. "

Pg. 15: Gin of Selik also manufactures spells.

Pg. 52 Magic research

On a related note, it appears some Blackmoor magic users wore armor. See this discussion about Boozero (aka Bosero) blackmoor.mystara.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5913#p5913

Outside of AiF, all we have are broad strokes and hints. But it does sound like it was fun!SaveSave

[Malchor]

Reading some of the Howard Shea adventures by de Camp and Fletcher as well as some Appendix N analysis (Appendix N podcast, etc.).

If MUs in Chainmail are basically artillary, and D&D as we know it is mostly Vancian, what is the literary source for Arneson and Blackmoor? Howard Shea’s magic system and the use of magic in that series seems not far off. Thoughts? Any other good candidates?