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Elves
Jan 30, 2008 15:36:27 GMT -6
Post by dwayanu on Jan 30, 2008 15:36:27 GMT -6
Another variation, inspired by the Vol. 2 entry:
An Elf has HD and fights per Fighter level, while MU level determines spell-casting ability. For Saving Throws, use the best from among the two sets.
The player gets to decide each session or expedition (or by whatever scheme the ref prefers) to which class XP are assigned.
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Elves
Jan 30, 2008 16:42:43 GMT -6
Post by ffilz on Jan 30, 2008 16:42:43 GMT -6
dwayanu:
Hmm, that's an interesting interepretation. The unfortunate thing is that if an elf decides to be essentially single class (by applying all XP to the same class, there are some oddities. He makes a nice fighter (who gets one 1st level spell, and for a while has a few better saves). As a mage, he never increases in hit points or fighting ability.
So I might amend that:
To fighting ability is the better of that received based on his levels. Hit points are the better of those received based on his levels.
With that hit point rule, you have several options:
If you roll new HP each adventure, then the elf simply choses whether to roll fighting man or magic user hit points.
If you keep a total, and add new die rolls as the character advances, the elf might be allowed to keep both running totals, and use the better one.
If you use Greyhawk hit points, you could just declare the elf gets 1d6 each time he gains a fighting man level greater than his magic user level or the reverse (in other words, he should have d6 equal to the highest of his two levels, but he might have concentrated on magic use for several levels and thus gained the d6es from those levels). This option would make for more powerful single classed magic using elves, but is balanced by the level cap (with this option, you might want to switch to d4 when magic user level exceeds maximum possible fighting man level).
Frank
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Elves
Feb 2, 2008 14:49:34 GMT -6
Post by dwayanu on Feb 2, 2008 14:49:34 GMT -6
Thanks for your observations, ffilz, although I do not think I have quite digested them.
I stumbled into a comedy routine awhile ago when I was looking at my pencilled-in notes concerning Giants, so bear that caveat in mind.
Vol. 2 suggests that only 1 in 50 Elves gains level 2+, but that those remarkable fellows advance to 2nd level (at least) in both fields of endeavor. BTB, only 1 in 100 proceeds past MU5, and the entry takes that one all the way to Warlock (skipping Enchanter and Magician demographics entirely).
My marginal notes make a "Captain" F 2-4 / MU 1-5, a "General" F4 and MU 6-8 (roll d6: 1-3 = Magician, 4-5 = Enchanter, 6 = Warlock).
It's a long time ere I had nonhuman PCs, so interpretation of my own former "rules" for that is dicey. Offhand, I reckon giving only half value for XP devoted to MU levels 6+ (or 5+?) might fit the bill.
The allowance for puissance in fighting and magic to vary (rather than being at a set ratio) seems to me a distinctive mark of the original conception as presented in the first trilogy of rulesbooks.
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 2, 2008 15:54:20 GMT -6
I have made a compilation of all elven abilities in OD&D and Chainmail, and tried to translate them as best as I could for OD&D. This does not pretend to be official stuff, but my own interpretation of the OD&D Elves. The OD&D Elf- Elves are also called "Fairies" (Chainmail p. 29).
- There are 2 sorts of Elves: Woodland Elves, and Meadowland Elves (M&T p. 16)
- Elves may use magic armor and still act as magic-users (M&M p. 8).
- Elves are able to speak the languages of Orcs, Hobgoblins, and Gnolls in addition to their own (Elvish) and the other usual tongues (M&M p. 8).
- Elves have the ability of moving silently and are nearly invisible in their gray-green cloaks(M&T p. 16). When invisible Elves (and Fairies) cannot attack — or be attacked unless located by an enemy with the special ability to detect hidden or invisible troops — but they can become visible and attack during the same turn (Chainmail p. 28).
- Elves armed with magical weapons will add one pip to dice rolled to determine damage. (M&T p. 16)
- Elves on foot may split-move and fire (M&T p. 16).
- Mounted Elves may not split-move and fire, for they are not naturally adapted to horseback (M&T p. 16).
- Elves detect secret doors 1-4 in 6 (U&W p. 9).
- Elves notice secret door 1-2 in 6, when passing by them (U&W p. 9).
- Elves receive +1 in 6 chance to detect sound at doors (U&W p. 9)
- Elves are about 3/4 the size of men (Chainmail p. 28).
- Elves see in normal the darkness as if it were light (Chainmail p. 43).
- Elves wielding a magical weapon add +2 to attack against goblins.
- Elves wielding a magical weapon add +1 to attack against orcs.
- Elves deal double damage against Ogres (Chainmail p. 28, ogre entry).
- Elves move at 15" / 12" / 6" (deduced from Chainmail p.43)
- Elves get no benefits from charging (deduced from Chainmail p.43 - no charge speed)
- Elves are neutral but have a slight pre-disposition for LAW (Chainmail p. 34).
- Elves wear beards (M&M p. 32).
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Elves
Feb 2, 2008 16:35:33 GMT -6
Post by dwayanu on Feb 2, 2008 16:35:33 GMT -6
I have ruled that Elves move silently and are (in their customary garb) effectively "invisible" at least in wilderness scenarios until they attack.
They get +1 to damage with magic swords, even when not otherwise provided by the D&D rules.
Basically, they are a nasty bunch with which to mess -- so even nasty folks don't mess with them if there are easier pickings to try plucking.
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Elves
Feb 2, 2008 16:45:10 GMT -6
Post by Zulgyan on Feb 2, 2008 16:45:10 GMT -6
I am yet undecided about the F/M-U issue and how to apply it in the game.
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Elves
Feb 2, 2008 17:08:36 GMT -6
Post by dwayanu on Feb 2, 2008 17:08:36 GMT -6
You are given 40 men at arms with which to express your lord's argument against the Fey Folk's misappropriation of his sheep.
You run into four Elves, and in the first minute 90% of your command is laid low in fairy slumbers.
The remaining four doughty lads look at you with the implicit question, "What's the point, again?"
Then the Elf-shot starts whistling in ...
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Elves
Feb 3, 2008 14:06:59 GMT -6
Post by foster1941 on Feb 3, 2008 14:06:59 GMT -6
- Elves wielding a magical weapon add +3 to attack against goblins.
- Elves wielding a magical weapon add +2 to attack against orcs.
Elves wielding a magical weapon add +1 to attack against Wizards, Wraiths, Wights, Lycanthropes, Ogres, Balrogs, Giants.
In D&D magic weapons always provide a bonus to hit against everyone, so what this effectively means is that elves with magic weapons get an extra +2 (beyond the plus of their weapon) against goblins and +1 against orcs. Note also that U&W p. 9 gives elves (and dwarfs and hobbits) +1 in 6 chance to detect sound at doors.
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Elves
Feb 3, 2008 14:28:30 GMT -6
Post by Zulgyan on Feb 3, 2008 14:28:30 GMT -6
- Elves wielding a magical weapon add +3 to attack against goblins.
- Elves wielding a magical weapon add +2 to attack against orcs.
Elves wielding a magical weapon add +1 to attack against Wizards, Wraiths, Wights, Lycanthropes, Ogres, Balrogs, Giants.
In D&D magic weapons always provide a bonus to hit against everyone, so what this effectively means is that elves with magic weapons get an extra +2 (beyond the plus of their weapon) against goblins and +1 against orcs. Hmmm... really good points. Seems like you are correct. Added. Thank you foster!
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Elves
Feb 8, 2008 16:37:28 GMT -6
Post by dwayanu on Feb 8, 2008 16:37:28 GMT -6
Blind spot: If you let Elves "mix and match," then double the XP requirements. Thus, an Elf F 4 / MU 8 ends up needing 166,00 XP rather than 150,000 by the customary method of dividiing equally even after F4.
The difference between methods is greater the closer together the caps are. A Half-Elf F 6 / MU 6 would need twice the XP this way versus equal division.
You can give the same flexibility to three-class combos by tripling or (my preference) quadrupling XP requirements. Clerical / Magical hybrids are IMO exceptionally powerful due to the increase in number of spells castable.
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Elves
Feb 16, 2008 17:41:27 GMT -6
Post by coffee on Feb 16, 2008 17:41:27 GMT -6
I basically ended up allowing the elves in my game (and there were three of them, out of six players...) to be F/MU. They could wear armor and use weapons as a Fighting-Man, but they also had a spell. And one of them did quite well with the spell, I might add. (But he later died in melee).
I'm going to have to hit them for additional XP to advance, though.
And Gary Gygax said (not that this was in the rules or anything...) that their hit dice are halved. I assume this means after first level, but he wasn't clear on that.
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jrients
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 411
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Elves
Feb 16, 2008 21:05:52 GMT -6
Post by jrients on Feb 16, 2008 21:05:52 GMT -6
Great work, Zuglyan. Good catch on the double damage against ogres. In my own house rules I use "Fairies" as elves with butterfly wings. They are not a PC race but are other than flight are identical to elves and constitute a third race alongside wood and meadow elves.
Also, I interpret the extra "dice" Chainmail allows as goblins, orcs, etc., as either attack or damage dice. Thus an elf with a magic sword may opt to take two extra attacks against goblins or strike a single goblin with 4 dice of damage, or mix and match extra attacks and extra damage.
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Elves
Feb 17, 2008 1:21:54 GMT -6
Post by Zulgyan on Feb 17, 2008 1:21:54 GMT -6
Great work, Zuglyan. Good catch on the double damage against ogres. Thank you! At the communitie's service. Nice. ;D Cool. Great way of interpreting it. And much more in vein with the "we must unlearn what we learned" that Falconer suggests.
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Elves
Feb 17, 2008 12:21:26 GMT -6
Post by Zulgyan on Feb 17, 2008 12:21:26 GMT -6
Great work, Zuglyan. Good catch on the double damage against ogres. In my own house rules I use "Fairies" as elves with butterfly wings. They are not a PC race but are other than flight are identical to elves and constitute a third race alongside wood and meadow elves. This interpretation can also be founded of the fairies picture that appears on p. 6 of M&M
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Elves
Feb 17, 2008 12:23:27 GMT -6
Post by Zulgyan on Feb 17, 2008 12:23:27 GMT -6
Should elves start the game with their green-grey cloaks? Or should they acquire one in the course of their adventures?
What do you guys think?
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jrients
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 411
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Elves
Feb 17, 2008 12:44:59 GMT -6
Post by jrients on Feb 17, 2008 12:44:59 GMT -6
This interpretation can also be founded of the fairies picture that appears on p. 6 of M&M My copy of M&M has no illo on page 6.
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Elves
Feb 18, 2008 12:13:41 GMT -6
Post by ffilz on Feb 18, 2008 12:13:41 GMT -6
My interpretation is that in D&D, the elven concealment ability with their cloaks is represented by the elven cloak magic item (which is useable by others also).
Frank
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