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Elves
Jan 3, 2008 21:43:44 GMT -6
Post by carjack on Jan 3, 2008 21:43:44 GMT -6
How do you handle elf pcs in your OD&D? Do you have them switching between magic user and fighting man between adventures? Do you have them multi-classed like B/X Elves? How, rulewise, do you do it? These elves just seem to make my head hurt.
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Elves
Jan 4, 2008 8:00:22 GMT -6
Post by makofan on Jan 4, 2008 8:00:22 GMT -6
I play it like they are simultaneously a Fighter and a Magic User. They go up levels seperately. So a beginning adventurer can wear plate mail, use a bow AND cast spells while in armor - pretty sweet. HOWEVER, before each adventure, he has to say "This adventure my experience points are going towards my xxx level" where xxx is either Fighting Man or Magic User. So it takes a while to get anywhere. This gives the player a chance to decide which part to emphasize
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Elves
Jan 4, 2008 10:18:09 GMT -6
Post by James Maliszewski on Jan 4, 2008 10:18:09 GMT -6
I play it like they are simultaneously a Fighter and a Magic User. They go up levels seperately. So a beginning adventurer can wear plate mail, use a bow AND cast spells while in armor - pretty sweet. HOWEVER, before each adventure, he has to say "This adventure my experience points are going towards my xxx level" where xxx is either Fighting Man or Magic User. So it takes a while to get anywhere. This gives the player a chance to decide which part to emphasize That seems to be the way M&M implies elves should be handled. It's a rather clunky mechanic IMO and I can easily see why the elf class evolved as a way to introduce a bit more "elegance" into the implementation of elves as PCs.
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Elves
Jan 4, 2008 16:27:23 GMT -6
Post by Finarvyn on Jan 4, 2008 16:27:23 GMT -6
I let them advance simultaneously as well. The "one or the other" system always seemed a bit strange to me.
Legolas: "Sorry, but I'm a spellcaster today. No arrows but maybe a nice Light spell?"
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jrients
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 411
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Elves
Jan 4, 2008 20:46:57 GMT -6
Post by jrients on Jan 4, 2008 20:46:57 GMT -6
I chose to embrace the strangeness as the weird ways of the fey. One day they can fight like a Hero, the next they forget how to use a sword but can lob a fireball instead. No one but the elves themselves understand this behavior.
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Elves
Jan 4, 2008 21:07:56 GMT -6
Post by makofan on Jan 4, 2008 21:07:56 GMT -6
No no no, they can decide they want their experience to apply as a fighter this adventure, but they can still cast a SLEEP spell
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jrients
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 411
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Post by jrients on Jan 5, 2008 9:27:41 GMT -6
From my copy of Men & Magic:
I interpret this to mean that at the start of each session an elf must choose one class or another and operate solely as that class, all xp earned going towards that class. I read the last line quoted as a special exception to the general exclusivity of choosing one class or the other.
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Elves
Jan 5, 2008 10:03:57 GMT -6
Post by dwayanu on Jan 5, 2008 10:03:57 GMT -6
Jrients, that's an interesting take. It certainly poses a greater challenge to the player. How do you deal with Hit Points?
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Elves
Jan 5, 2008 11:59:10 GMT -6
Post by doc on Jan 5, 2008 11:59:10 GMT -6
The most simple way to do it (imo) is to simply give them XP as normal and have them divide the XP between all of their classes (F/MU, F/M/T, etc.). There is no logical reason why an elf swordsman would suddenly forget how to use a sword or maneuver in chainmail just because he is carrying a spellbook.
Doc
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Elves
Jan 5, 2008 14:16:51 GMT -6
Post by James Maliszewski on Jan 5, 2008 14:16:51 GMT -6
I chose to embrace the strangeness as the weird ways of the fey. One day they can fight like a Hero, the next they forget how to use a sword but can lob a fireball instead. No one but the elves themselves understand this behavior. I think that's an excellent, albeit very specific, way to make sense of the rules and rather nicely works with my own preference for elves as paradigmatic examples of Chaos-aligned creatures who are not in fact evil. I'm honestly not sure that it's what was intended but I personally find it a nifty way to square the circle, so to speak.
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Elves
Jan 5, 2008 14:21:58 GMT -6
Post by James Maliszewski on Jan 5, 2008 14:21:58 GMT -6
The most simple way to do it (imo) is to simply give them XP as normal and have them divide the XP between all of their classes (F/MU, F/M/T, etc.). There is no logical reason why an elf swordsman would suddenly forget how to use a sword or maneuver in chainmail just because he is carrying a spellbook. A couple of comments: 1. I think your interpretation makes sense once you get into Supplement I territory and later. It's clearly the interpretation that AD&D canonized and was probably a very common -- maybe even the most common -- house rule on the subject. However, the rule as written is sufficiently vague that I can see other interpretations. 2. As noted in the post by jrients above, it's not the only possible interpretation and what he proposes gives elves a lot of character. It's certainly not "logical" but that's part of the point: elves under this interpretation aren't logical, at least not according to the standards of men.
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Elves
Jan 5, 2008 14:32:07 GMT -6
Post by badger2305 on Jan 5, 2008 14:32:07 GMT -6
I chose to embrace the strangeness as the weird ways of the fey. One day they can fight like a Hero, the next they forget how to use a sword but can lob a fireball instead. No one but the elves themselves understand this behavior. I think that's an excellent, albeit very specific, way to make sense of the rules and rather nicely works with my own preference for elves as paradigmatic examples of Chaos-aligned creatures who are not in fact evil. I'm honestly not sure that it's what was intended but I personally find it a nifty way to square the circle, so to speak. It's interesting, but I am fairly sure from conversations with Dave Arneson and Michael Mornard that this is not how that particular bit of game mechanics was intended to work.
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Elves
Jan 5, 2008 14:35:35 GMT -6
Post by James Maliszewski on Jan 5, 2008 14:35:35 GMT -6
It's interesting, but I am fairly sure from conversations with Dave Arneson and Michael Mornard that this is not how that particular bit of game mechanics was intended to work. I have little doubt that it's not how the rules were intended to be used, but it's hard to deny that the rules as written are very unclear on this point. One of the things I find most interesting about the OD&D community is the extent to which individuals are willing to recognize the authority of apocrypha, hadiths, and the deutero-canon beyond the original Holy Writ.
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Elves
Jan 5, 2008 15:07:03 GMT -6
Post by Finarvyn on Jan 5, 2008 15:07:03 GMT -6
I interpret this to mean that at the start of each session an elf must choose one class or another and operate solely as that class, all xp earned going towards that class. That's the way I read the rule as well; I just don't like that interpretation. I'm sure that this issue is what prompted Classic D&D to move to the race=class model. Dwarves are just fighters, but elves are a mutation of two classes. I kind of the like the idea that you would take the XP totals for each class and add them together, so that elves would get advantages of both classes but have to advance in BOTH classes before they get the next level of benefits.
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Elves
Jan 5, 2008 17:29:22 GMT -6
Post by badger2305 on Jan 5, 2008 17:29:22 GMT -6
It's interesting, but I am fairly sure from conversations with Dave Arneson and Michael Mornard that this is not how that particular bit of game mechanics was intended to work. I have little doubt that it's not how the rules were intended to be used, but it's hard to deny that the rules as written are very unclear on this point. One of the things I find most interesting about the OD&D community is the extent to which individuals are willing to recognize the authority of apocrypha, hadiths, and the deutero-canon beyond the original Holy Writ. Well, yeah. ;D That's part of the fun - figure out what you want to do then do it. By this standard, I'm a schismatic from WAAAY back.
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jrients
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 411
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Post by jrients on Jan 5, 2008 21:00:19 GMT -6
Jrients, that's an interesting take. It certainly poses a greater challenge to the player. How do you deal with Hit Points? Hit points are rolled anew at the beginning of each session for all PCs under my house rules. Sometimes you show up to the dungeon full of vim and vigor, other times you have a cold.
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Elves
Jan 6, 2008 21:56:18 GMT -6
Post by Finarvyn on Jan 6, 2008 21:56:18 GMT -6
I recall somewhere finding a specific "elf spell list" for Classic D&D. It might be worth hunting for and posting, because I think the spells would be similar enough to OD&D. One thing I always hated was the fact that elf spells were exactly the same as wizard spells.....
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Elves
Jan 7, 2008 12:55:24 GMT -6
Post by dwayanu on Jan 7, 2008 12:55:24 GMT -6
The Elves of Alfheim and Shadow Elves Gazetteers include customized lists with special spells, IIRC.
BTW, the latter work is especially interesting in that it presents deep-dwelling Elves quite different from the (unfortunately) now-familiar Drow.
(I mean unfortunate in the sense that their mystery and the sense of wonder at discovering them in play seems to have been stolen away from new generations of players. The cryptic and potentially misleading reference in the original Monster Manual was IMO a wise withholding of information.)
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Elves
Jan 7, 2008 15:58:15 GMT -6
Post by calithena on Jan 7, 2008 15:58:15 GMT -6
Hit points are rolled anew at the beginning of each session for all PCs under my house rules. Sometimes you show up to the dungeon full of vim and vigor, other times you have a cold. That's a really great rule IMO.
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Elves
Jan 7, 2008 19:31:50 GMT -6
Post by Finarvyn on Jan 7, 2008 19:31:50 GMT -6
I found the Elf Spell List that I had been looking for. It's by far my favorite and I think would work equally well with OD&D or Classic. Credit to Michael Wallace, who created this list. First Level1. Charm Person (MU 1) 2. Detect Magic (MU 1) 3. Light (MU 1) 4. Locate (Druid 1) 5. Predict Weather (Druid 1) 6. Read Languages (MU 1) 7. Read Magic (MU 1) Second Level1. Continual Light (MU 2) 2. Detect Evil (MU 2) 3. Entangle (MU 2) 4. ESP (MU 2) 5. Locate Object (MU 2) 6. Obscure (Druid 2) 7. Warp Wood (Druid 2) Third Level1. Clairvoyance (MU 3) 2. Create Air (MU 3) 3. Dispel Magic (MU 3) 4. Hold Animal (Druid 3) 5. Hold Person (MU 3) 6. Protection from Poison (Druid 3) 7. Water Breathing (MU 3) Fourth Level1. Charm Monster (MU 4) 2. Confusion (MU 4) 3. Growth of Plants (MU 4) 4. Hallucinatory Terrain (MU 4) 5. Massmorph (MU 4) 6. Plant Door (Druid 4) 7. Summon Animals (Druid 4) Fifth Level1. Anti-plant Shell (Druid 5) 2. Conjure Elemental (MU 5) 3. Contact Outer Plane (MU 5) 4. Feeblemind (MU 5) 5. Hold Monster (MU 5) 6. Pass Plant (Druid 5) 7. Woodform (MU 5)
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jrients
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 411
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Elves
Jan 8, 2008 11:43:02 GMT -6
Post by jrients on Jan 8, 2008 11:43:02 GMT -6
I like that list, but I don't think Protection from Poison appears in Eldritch Wizardry. Should I recognize Woodform? That sounds odd to me.
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Elves
Jan 8, 2008 12:00:07 GMT -6
Post by coffee on Jan 8, 2008 12:00:07 GMT -6
I think Woodform was in the Rules Compendium.
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Elves
Jan 10, 2008 20:09:15 GMT -6
Post by foster1941 on Jan 10, 2008 20:09:15 GMT -6
FWIW I also find the idea of split-personality elves who are, essentially, two different characters with the same set of ability scores (when acting as fighters they attack, save, and have hp as fighters and can use one set of magic items; when acting as magic-users they attack, save, and have hp as mages and can use a different set of magic items) appealing, or at least intriguing.
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Elves
Jan 10, 2008 20:28:35 GMT -6
Post by Finarvyn on Jan 10, 2008 20:28:35 GMT -6
FWIW I also find the idea of split-personality elves who are, essentially, two different characters with the same set of ability scores appealing, or at least intriguing. I find it more intriguing than appealing. The Jeckyl-Hyde aspect of the elven double-class just seems strange. I often wonder what the history is behind that particular rule. I mean, there must be humans in fiction who are both fighters and mages but they don't have that option. Only elves. And even if you get the option, isn't it strange to be able to do one or the other but not both? Just makes me wonder.
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Stonegiant
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
100% in Liar
Posts: 240
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Elves
Jan 28, 2008 17:48:05 GMT -6
Post by Stonegiant on Jan 28, 2008 17:48:05 GMT -6
My house rule for this is as follows-
Elves regardless of class use a straight d6 for hit points. Elves must choose how their energies are going to be focused on the next adventure (aka choose whether they will be a fighter or a magic user). Regardless of the class chosen (that adventure) they may still wear armor. If they choose magic-user they may only use daggers or staffs (in my game), this isn't because they have forgotten how, IMC it is because they have had to shut down that portion of their mind to be able to handle magical energies. Again IMC I require the elf character to spend one day per level of the class they are changing to in meditaiton to release their mind and energies (being a fighter) or focusing their mind and pulling all of their energies into themselves for spell casting. When being a fighter they still have full memory of their spells but aren't able to fuel and fire them. This mind focus routine also applies for magic items as well. YMMV but that is how it is going in my campaign and I will be able to tell you shortly whether it works or not (my wife plans on playing with my son and I and she will be playing an elf.)
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WSmith
Level 4 Theurgist
Where is the Great Svenny when we need him?
Posts: 138
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Elves
Jan 29, 2008 11:14:57 GMT -6
Post by WSmith on Jan 29, 2008 11:14:57 GMT -6
I think the elf character has a few different options:
1. Straight Fighting Man. They forsake the magic side. I might even consider allowing them to advance beyond 4th level in this option.
2. Straight Magic-User. Martial arts are not their forte. Again, maybe going beyond 8th level is possible.
3. Fighter/Magic-User, the AD&D model. This is like being multiclassed in AD&D, split XP earned evenly. HP are rolled either on only the Fighter table or averaged.
4. The elusive ancient Elf. Switching from fighter to mage between adventures or forays is their mysterious elven ancestry kicking in. With a 1000 something year life span, they could get bored easy and want change more often than humans do. This allows them to pull this weirdness off. XP goes to what ever class they choose for that particular adventure. My opinion would be to have them only roll for Hit Points on the fighter table until which time the HD amount on the Magic User table exceeds that of their fighter HD possibility, (think it is 6th level but I would have to check again.)
5. The Elven sorcerer. This elf uses a custom list of spells pulled from VOL I through all the supplements and the SR to better match their inherent magical nature. They can use armor and arms as a fighting man, but must only use the magic user table for hit dice and advancement. They may or may not as the referee desires, have some form of spontaneous casting ability.
6. Other things that I haven't thought of yet.
Note: My assessment assumes that the classes available are the fighter and magic user, not the thief.
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Elves
Jan 29, 2008 11:26:27 GMT -6
Post by coffee on Jan 29, 2008 11:26:27 GMT -6
Note: I disagreeessment assumes that the classes available are the fighter and magic user, not the thief. Sorry, what did you originally say before the bowdlerizing software took over?
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WSmith
Level 4 Theurgist
Where is the Great Svenny when we need him?
Posts: 138
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Elves
Jan 29, 2008 12:24:32 GMT -6
Post by WSmith on Jan 29, 2008 12:24:32 GMT -6
Note: I disagreeessment assumes that the classes available are the fighter and magic user, not the thief. Sorry, what did you originally say before the bowdlerizing software took over? What the? I fixed that. It should say, "My assessment assumes..."
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WSmith
Level 4 Theurgist
Where is the Great Svenny when we need him?
Posts: 138
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Elves
Jan 29, 2008 12:26:44 GMT -6
Post by WSmith on Jan 29, 2008 12:26:44 GMT -6
Sorry, what did you originally say before the bowdlerizing software took over? What the? I fixed that. It should say, "I disagreeessment assumes..." ARGH! Profanity filter. The as-sess-ment being mine. My as-sess-ment.
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Elves
Jan 29, 2008 12:41:06 GMT -6
Post by coffee on Jan 29, 2008 12:41:06 GMT -6
See, that's what I assumed you meant, and yet it let "assumed" go right through...weird.
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