Kuntz OD&D versus Gygax OD&D

[Deleted]

falconer said:

I would give Blume “a pass” on the basis of Warriors of Mars, Boot Hill, and Eldritch Wizardry. Why would I as a fan have to take sides against people? Rob and Gary don’t get along lately but they both have done good writing. I also like Tracy Hickman (who by the way still runs 1e), Zeb Cook, Jeff Grubb, Frank Mentzer... and EVEN Dave Arneson!

Jim Ward and Tim Kask I have gotten bad vibes from in person. *shrug*

I agree, Falconer. All the aforementioned people have contributed immensly to the hobby I love. It's best to only judge a person by their actions & words that are directed towards yourself, & yourself only. I really couldn't care less about these "rivalries" or past transgressions; I've never even met any of them! It's simply none of my affair.

What would be outstanding, however, is if all these people could put the past behind them & collaborate once again with one another on something. Wishful thinking, I suppose...

[Melan]

You can't step into the same river twice. There is, unfortunately, no guarantee that even such cooperations would be as fruitful as they once were. People can change a lot over a few years, let alone more than 30.

[Deleted]

melan said:

You can't step into the same river twice. There is, unfortunately, no guarantee that even such cooperations would be as fruitful as they once were. People can change a lot over a few years, let alone more than 30.

You're right. Might be worth a shot, though.

[murquhart72]

melan said:

You can't step into the same river twice. There is, unfortunately, no guarantee that even such cooperations would be as fruitful as they once were. People can change a lot over a few years, let alone more than 30.

But I like the old river! How do I get it back

[crimhthanthegreat]

themattjon said:

melan said:

You can't step into the same river twice. There is, unfortunately, no guarantee that even such cooperations would be as fruitful as they once were. People can change a lot over a few years, let alone more than 30.

But I like the old river! How do I get it back

Channel the old school vibe and do it yourself!

[geoffrey]

calithena said:

Frank Mentzer has suggested that the differences between that and AD&D 1 owe a lot to Law Schick (Mentzer thinks of AD&D 1 as 'Schick D&D' - this is interesting in that Gygax's stamp on it is overwhelming, but it may be that the material Gygax chose has a lot of connection to the stuff Schick liked best, for example. Frank was there and I'm sure that there's something to what he's saying.)

Today I asked Frank about this on his Q&A thread on dragonsfoot, and he flatly denied it, and Tim Kask denied it as well. Here is what Tim wrote:

'Basic and Advanced were outlined and delineated well before "Larry" (I hope he's reading this; it will irk him to use that diminuitive) ever came aboard. How do I know this? Because Gary and I spent the better part of two weeks sequestered in his office cutting up old booklets and covering the walls of his office with notes and pages as we thrashed out the initial concept.
Now how much he f-ed it up later I can't say. But it certainly was not his idea nor was it his concept. It was the last significant contribution I made to the evolution of D&D.'

Here is what Frank wrote:

"If I did type such a bizarre comment I'm sure I was drunk."

(link: www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10717&start=2865 )

Anyway, I just wanted to investigate what I thought was an incredible idea (i. e., that AD&D was Schick's). It turns out to be completely wrong. AD&D is Gary's baby.

[James Maliszewski]

geoffrey said:

Anyway, I just wanted to investigate what I thought was an incredible idea (i. e., that AD&D was Schick's). It turns out to be completely wrong. AD&D is Gary's baby.

I think the truth is, in fact, somewhat more muddled than this, though. Gary said on several occasions that AD&D as written included many mechanical elements that did not originate with him, but that he included at the insistence of others. I distinctly recall his saying that weapon speed factors were Schick's idea. I can dig up the quote if you'd like.

That said, there's no question in my mind that, as OD&D grew in popularity, Gary saw a need, both from a financial and an "administrative" perspective, to codify and regularize the game. I think it's without question true that AD&D was, in conception, a Gygax creation, but there are many mechanical elements in it, as there were in supplementary OD&D that were either not to Gary's liking or did not originate with him.

[badger2305]

jamesm said:

geoffrey said:

Anyway, I just wanted to investigate what I thought was an incredible idea (i. e., that AD&D was Schick's). It turns out to be completely wrong. AD&D is Gary's baby.

I think the truth is, in fact, somewhat more muddled than this, though. Gary said on several occasions that AD&D as written included many mechanical elements that did not originate with him, but that he included at the insistence of others. I distinctly recall his saying that weapon speed factors were Schick's idea. I can dig up the quote if you'd like.

That said, there's no question in my mind that, as OD&D grew in popularity, Gary saw a need, both from a financial and an "administrative" perspective, to codify and regularize the game. I think it's without question true that AD&D was, in conception, a Gygax creation, but there are many mechanical elements in it, as there were in supplementary OD&D that were either not to Gary's liking or did not originate with him.

...and it is also the case that the distinction between "AD&D" and "OD&D" was one of the issues raised in the lawsuit between Dave Arneson and TSR. (It's a fact that it was an issue - but which one of the reasons already mentioned was the originating point for AD&D as a distinct game is unclear, but all of the reasons have some validity for explaining what happened.)

[geoffrey]

jamesm said:

geoffrey said:

Gary said on several occasions that AD&D as written included many mechanical elements that did not originate with him, but that he included at the insistence of others. I distinctly recall his saying that weapon speed factors were Schick's idea.

True. I also remember Gary saying he was convinced in a moment of weakness to put that byzantine unarmed combat system in the DMG. He also never liked psionics (which, I think, was Brian Blume's baby).

My point is that, overall, AD&D is Gary's baby, not Schick's baby.

[murquhart72]

geoffrey said:

jamesm said:

geoffrey said:

Gary said on several occasions that AD&D as written included many mechanical elements that did not originate with him, but that he included at the insistence of others. I distinctly recall his saying that weapon speed factors were Schick's idea.

True. I also remember Gary saying he was convinced in a moment of weakness to put that byzantine unarmed combat system in the DMG. He also never liked psionics (which, I think, was Brian Blume's baby).

My point is that, overall, AD&D is Gary's baby, not Schick's baby.

Yep, I'll second that ;D

[redpriest]

geoffrey said:

True. I also remember Gary saying he was convinced in a moment of weakness to put that byzantine unarmed combat system in the DMG. He also never liked psionics (which, I think, was Brian Blume's baby).

When the wizard Kask first showed up DF, I thought he mentioned that he pushed for psionics. If DF were actually available, I could verify if that's the case or if I'm just not recalling correctly.

[grodog]

If you read the articles about the DMG's release in TD 28 (starts on pages 4-5), you'll see that clearly large sections of the DMG weren't only written by Gary. Similarly, the many Thank Yous listed in the MM and PHB are placeholders for non-Gygaxian written content in those books. That is not to say that Gary didn't take the original PC classes and improve/codify/establish them in the game officially and with significant changes in some cases; however, at the least, Rangers (Joe Fisher, SR2), Illusionists (Peter Aronson, SR4), Bards (Doug Schwegman, SR6), Thieves (Paul Stormberg has the details on this one, GH), Assassins (Arneson?, BM), and Druids (Dennis Sustarre, EW), weren't Gary's original creations. The Paladin in GH seems likely to be Gary's work, and then I have no idea whether the Monk (from BM) was originally Arneson's or someone else's creation.

[geoffrey]

grodog said:

I have no idea whether the Monk (from BM) was originally Arneson's or someone else's creation.

The monk is the work of Brian Blume. Here is what Gary had to say in the preface to the AD&D Oriental Adventures book:

"In its early development, the D&D game was supplemented by various booklets, and in one of these the monk, inspired by Brian Blume and the book series called The Destroyer, was appended to the characters playable."

[James Maliszewski]

geoffrey said:

"In its early development, the D&D game was supplemented by various booklets, and in one of these the monk, inspired by Brian Blume and the book series called The Destroyer, was appended to the characters playable."

Wait -- Remo Williams is the basis for the monk, not Kwai Chang Caine?

Whoa.

[foster1941]

Brian Blume receives no "special thanks for suggestions and ideas" credit in Supplement II, which is how contributors were generally acknowledged, so he probably only suggested "hey, we should add a kung-fu martial artist character to D&D!" and then Dave, or perhaps Gary or Rob (both of whom are thanked for "suggestions and ideas" in Supplement II, alongside Steve Marsh (which we now know is for all his underwater stuff) and Tim Kask (presumably for "polishing up" various things)), actually sat down and wrote out the details.

[driver]

jamesm said:

geoffrey said:

"In its early development, the D&D game was supplemented by various booklets, and in one of these the monk, inspired by Brian Blume and the book series called The Destroyer, was appended to the characters playable."

Wait -- Remo Williams is the basis for the monk, not Kwai Chang Caine?

Whoa.

That's my understanding as well, but I have no textual support.

I read a *lot* of Destroyer pulps as a kid and was very disappointed with the movie.

[Rhuvein]

Apr 3, 2008 23:54:42 GMT -6 grodog said:

If you read the articles about the DMG's release in TD 28 (starts on pages 4-5), you'll see that clearly large sections of the DMG weren't only written by Gary.

*snip*

Illusionists (Peter Aronson, SR4)

I recall Peter joining DF last year and commenting in Gary's Q&A thread on his illusionist contribution. Twas interesting. I should try and find that and of course, spend some time re-reading those great threads.

[Deleted]

Yup, Remo Williams.

Shick? Influenced AD&D enough to have it called Shick flavored, or whatever? News to me, and to a whole lot of other people, too, I'm willing to bet.

Someone should ask Frank to list the points of LS's influence. What, did he interrupt Gary's hasty, stream of conscious writing of the main volumes of AD&D? I don't even think Kuntz knew Shick in any way other than in passing. And didn't Gary disdain that same production department LS was running?

[busman]

Apr 13, 2008 20:27:09 GMT -6 Rhuvein said:

Apr 3, 2008 23:54:42 GMT -6 grodog said:

If you read the articles about the DMG's release in TD 28 (starts on pages 4-5), you'll see that clearly large sections of the DMG weren't only written by Gary.

*snip*

Illusionists (Peter Aronson, SR4)

I recall Peter joining DF last year and commenting in Gary's Q&A thread on his illusionist contribution. Twas interesting. I should try and find that and of course, spend some time re-reading those great threads.

www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=447698&highlight=#447698

[foster1941]

Apr 14, 2008 1:05:13 GMT -6 @billybobo said:

Yup, Remo Williams.

Shick? Influenced AD&D enough to have it called Shick flavored, or whatever? News to me, and to a whole lot of other people, too, I'm willing to bet.

Someone should ask Frank to list the points of LS's influence. What, did he interrupt Gary's hasty, stream of conscious writing of the main volumes of AD&D? I don't even think Kuntz knew Shick in any way other than in passing. And didn't Gary disdain that same production department LS was running?

The AD&D-as-Lawrence Schick's D&D meme originated (AFAICT) with Steve Marsh, who worked at TSR for a brief period in the summer of 1980 (after corresponding with Gary for several years prior) and reflects the situation as he saw it at that time (i.e. a year after the DMG was published) -- Schick was in charge of the AD&D line at that time and was, I guess, a hardliner about rules and flavor conformity (which is consistent with what the AD&D rulebooks actually say even if no one else but Schick ever took those statements seriously).

[James Maliszewski]

Apr 14, 2008 13:52:16 GMT -6 foster1941 said:

Schick was in charge of the AD&D line at that time and was, I guess, a hardliner about rules and flavor conformity (which is consistent with what the AD&D rulebooks actually say even if no one else but Schick ever took those statements seriously).

As I understand it, perhaps in error, Schick was one of the guys at TSR most gung-ho about what we'd now call "organized play" and felt the need for standardized rules very acutely. This is backed up by a couple of things Gary said at various points, including in old editorials discussing the whys and wherefores of AD&D. I don't think it'd be fair to say that Law Schick was was the main driving force behind AD&D, but I do think it's likely that he was one of the strongest proponents for the-rules-are-the-rules approach to D&D that took hold after the DMG was published.

[grodog]

One of the auctions that I won from Paul Stormberg back in the fall included some T2 playtest PCs, and one sheet of notes about the bard as developed by Lawrence Schick (IIRC). I'll dig it up to post some details.